Hi,

I have the strangest situation. I am using TIA Portal V13 and I inserted a TON into ladder FC. However it is not counting!!!! See attached image.

The block is hashed blue instead of being green despite the input being active. This is the only instance of this TON. I am puzzled, Please help

Thanks

garyjm68

Hi,

I have the strangest situation. I am using TIA Portal V13 and I inserted a TON into ladder FC. However it is not counting!!!! See attached image.

The block is hashed blue instead of being green despite the input being active. This is the only instance of this TON. I am puzzled, Please help

Thanks

Hi,

I had the same issue on s7-1200 in new TIA v13 SP1.

To solve the problem change type IEC_TIMER on TON_TIME.

It seems like something broken in new TIA with old type of timer.

Saveliy

Hi,

I had the same issue on s7-1200 in new TIA v13 SP1.

To solve the problem change type IEC_TIMER on TON_TIME.

It seems like something broken in new TIA with old type of timer.

If so, it must be a problem with SP1...

This problem is in actual fact an old one. I know that this was seen for an S7-1200 in TIA11 TIA10.5 too by one of our guys. At that time Siemens locally here had no answer for it.

I have seen something almost the same that forced me to code a reset function, but that is not to be recommended.

Deleting the timer and placing it in a new network with new DB is all there is to recommend.

Moi aussi j ai le meme probleme avec cpu 1214 vraiment en attendre un expert de simens nous repondre

simlenze

Moi aussi j ai le meme probleme avec cpu 1214 vraiment en attendre un expert de simens nous repondre

 William.B "Deleting the timer and placing it in a new network with new DB is all there is to recommend."

Google translation:

"Supprimer la minuterie et la placer dans un nouveau réseau avec un nouveau DB est tout ce qu'il ya à recommander."

Thanks. It works now :)

TIA15.1 has still the same issue. To add a coil to output of the timer is a solution.

Thank you for help.

It seems it's not a bug but it's a function.

I have the same problem too.
Tia Portal V15 SP1 Update 3
I already have a set/reset coil in timer output.

This caused an important damage in a already working plant because malfunctioning didn't show when testing but some weeks after.

Piotr.M

another option is to use timer coil when no output is used

            #T_TIMER
----||------( TON )---
             T#1s

and use the Q somewhere else in the program (or as said before assign a coil after a "box" timer

 this solution doesn't work for me either

Vippi

 

Piotr.M

another option is to use timer coil when no output is used

            #T_TIMER
----||------( TON )---
             T#1s

and use the Q somewhere else in the program (or as said before assign a coil after a "box" timer

 this solution doesn't work for me either

 Here's an example that works. Change the timer type from -(TON)- to -[TON]-

Seems like finding description of the operation in the online manual is beyond comprehension.

So, here it is:

The most important (or rather most commonly misunderstood) parts are in bold. Try to understand them and employ them then all your troubles with timers should vanish.

There's is only one small inaccuracy in the manual. Not used timer, i.e. which Q output is never nowhere read, is not updated even it's called. But if the timer is not used in the logic then there's no point to update it, right?

Hi guys

i had the same problem then looking into the help i found the IEC timer output status is updated on its output assignment only.

Another thing to take in account about this timer is the time counting is totally asynchronous to the program so if you check the timer output status in different points of your code it can be true or false depending on the elapsed time, for this reason for me is a good policy to assign always a flag to  the timer output then check the flag instead of the timer output in the way to ensure the coherence of its status over all your code.

bye

Here there is a clear explanation for this strange behaviour.

https://www.dmcinfo.com/latest-thinking/blog/id/8862/troubleshooting-your-siemens-simatic-s7-1200-timers

(I suppose that everyone who happened to replace a S7-200/300 with a 1200/1500 could meet such trouble)

I also have seen the problem - Simply accessing the .Q was enough to make it work

Input: Reset = Bool

Static: Tmr = TON_TIME

Temp: Dummy =Bool

#Tmr(IN:= NOT "Reset", PT:=T#10s); 

"Dummy":=#Tmr.Q;                     // Remove this line and it sits at 0ms

There is however another issue I've found that doesn't seem to have been mentioned - Snapshot and Save can break the timer for first run...

Take the above example and let it run through so that .Q is True. Snapshot the Block and Save to all startup values. Download. Stop then Run the CPU = Timer is enabled but sits at 0ms. Reset the timer and it works Ok from then on. Problem is of course that a timer that is supposed to be timing from startup can sit at 0ms forever

Sorky

There is however another issue I've found that doesn't seem to have been mentioned - Snapshot and Save can break the timer for first run...

Take the above example and let it run through so that .Q is True. Snapshot the Block and Save to all startup values. Download. Stop then Run the CPU = Timer is enabled but sits at 0ms. Reset the timer and it works Ok from then on. Problem is of course that a timer that is supposed to be timing from startup can sit at 0ms forever

 

 That is a known issue, and can be handled with FirstScan bit, to reset the timer.

Hati

 That is a known issue, and can be handled with FirstScan bit, to reset the timer.

I'd hoped it was known, but failed to find any mention of it.

While I'd considered the FirstScan idea, that doesn't help if you want Retentive timers

ie: Timer completes and is on / PLC stops and runs / Timer should just resume as complete. Using FirstScan would cause it to reset and restart timing afresh which may not be desired and the current bug has it restart as off and never to re-time

Is there any plan for Siemens to fix these "known issues"?

Siemens Support reminded me that the timer only starts on a rising edge, so the cases I believe are...

a) Snapshot is taken with the IN false, the stop/run transition [with IN logic now TRUE] has the IN Starting at OFF [from the snapshot] / Then IN equates to ON = HAS rising edge, timer begins and counts as expected

b) Snapshot is taken with the IN and Q true, the stop/run transition [with IN logic now TRUE] has the IN starting at On / Then IN equates to ON = No rising edge so the timer doesn't run and Q goes FALSE [In the 300 I'm told the Q would be TRUE as that is what it was when snapshot]

That explains the "change in behaviour" I see and I wasn't thinking about timers when I did the snapshot - IMHO they could probably be excluded

Following on from the "change in behaviour" - Maybe the change between the 300 and 1500 should be considered - It appears to me that the 1500 does not snapshot the ET and Q values whereas the 300 does - Possibly just having the 1500 snapshot the ET and Q would solve the problem!

 Thanks for the answer. I am using TIA portal 14 SP1 on Win10 Pro. Still TON has problem inside FC. I am using with parameter instance for Timer. After using coil - it's working. SIMULATING ON PLCSIM.

sarkararnab91

Add a coil at the end of the Timer and problem will be solved. This is really a funny bug from TIA.

TIA ver16 has the same bug.
Coil at end seems to fix it.

Of all the different PLCs I've coded this is truly bizarre.
A very dangerous bug that needs fixing. Completely unexpected code behaviour.

PCtt

A very dangerous bug that needs fixing. Completely unexpected code behaviour.

If something is clearly described in a manual then it's not a bug anymore. End of story.

Using an edge detect seems to work quite well i.e. : --| P |-- or --| N |--

if the input to the timer always evaluates to true then it just keeps restarting the timer and it never actually runs.

 Re-initiate the instance datablock will probably fix the problem. Known issue, already existed in Step-7 Classic.

garyjm68

Hi,

I have the strangest situation. I am using TIA Portal V13 and I inserted a TON into ladder FC. However it is not counting!!!! See attached image.

The block is hashed blue instead of being green despite the input being active. This is the only instance of this TON. I am puzzled, Please help

Thanks

Thanks

Happens to me today in TIA 15.1

 The TIA V16 Update 1 has the same IEC timer issue.

Kryten Head One

I have had it upgrading projects from older TIA to P16 only way I could find around it was to go through the whole program finding every instance an IEC TON had been used replace it with a new TON with a different name and then delete the old IEC ones from each header and Compile. A bit hit and miss surely there should still be a compatibility for an IEC TON to be in TIA Portal in the first place?

Hit the same problem this week. The same between V14 and V16.  Took me half a day before I googled the issue I found this thread.

Somebody mentioned it is supposedly documented. Who on earth is going the read the documentation on how TON works!!! 

I regularly use the construct where I put the timer with its IN and PT parameter at the top of SCL code and evaluate the timer.Q further down the code in that block.

That may have work in inadvertently because of the context where timer.Q is accessed. Apparently it does not work in many cases. Explains some shady behaviour in the past. 

If it is a know issue, I feel the compiler should at least have warned about it..

Just adding Q=>tempBoolean to the call of the timer instance started things going, which I think is awful!!!

(not using any reference to IEC timers, just referring to the plain vanilla TON)

HansAST

Somebody mentioned it is supposedly documented. Who on earth is going the read the documentation on how TON works!!! 

Some of those who lost a half of day too.

HansAST

Hit the same problem this week. The same between V14 and V16.  Took me half a day before I googled the issue I found this thread.

Somebody mentioned it is supposedly documented. Who on earth is going the read the documentation on how TON works!!! 

I regularly use the construct where I put the timer with its IN and PT parameter at the top of SCL code and evaluate the timer.Q further down the code in that block.

That may have work in inadvertently because of the context where timer.Q is accessed. Apparently it does not work in many cases. Explains some shady behaviour in the past. 

If it is a know issue, I feel the compiler should at least have warned about it..

Just adding Q=>tempBoolean to the call of the timer instance started things going, which I think is awful!!!

(not using any reference to IEC timers, just referring to the plain vanilla TON)

V16 Update 4, still there.

Totally agreed. One of the most basic functions and Siemens still manages to mess it up, and make it more complicated than it should be. Very disappointing..

I understand that there's extra functioality, that let's you update the timer each time .Q is accessed. Very well, but that's not intuitive at all !! Make a separate timer with this functionality, but give the basic timer to the regular users. 

I've used many other brand PLCs, never seen anything like that.

I might be late to answer this, but i just found out by why by troubleshooting. If the timer is not used anywhere else e.g timer.Q or timer.ET, then the sytem does not see the need to turn it on. Try adding an output coil to the timer, or using timer.Q as an input or timer.ET in comparators or something. 

In short, the timer must have some use otherwise, it doesn't seem to work.

livebray0

I might be late to answer this, but i just found out by why by troubleshooting. If the timer is not used anywhere else e.g timer.Q or timer.ET, then the sytem does not see the need to turn it on. Try adding an output coil to the timer, or using timer.Q as an input or timer.ET in comparators or something. 

In short, the timer must have some use otherwise, it doesn't seem to work.

It's been already pointed out in this discussion. So no worries. 

Please use a coil at Q pin or use tag at BCD pin or call the function in other network. It will solve your problem. For more information about IEC timer please check the below link.

How to use IEC timer

Hello! For me, it worked to just add a coil after the timer.