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virtual axis variable cycle time

Created by: Ziemens at: 6/24/2011 8:53 AM (27 Replies)

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6/24/2011 8:53 AM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	Hy, we have a simotion d445, with a virtual axis running at a speed 300 cycles per minute. The period of each cycle should be 200 ms. But, when we monitor the actual position of this axis on the trace, we found that sometimes the cycle is 196 ms and other times it is 203 ms. This is really strange, a virtual axis with variations in the cycle time. What could be the problem here? Thanks in advance.
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6/27/2011 8:31 AM	Rate (0)
jacek d Platinum Member Joined: 9/23/2005 Last visit: 9/15/2025 Posts: 5116 Rating: (768)	And what's the sampling time ?
	Regards, Jacek What is confusing you is the fact that you never see a number but always its digit representation. So you end up thinking that the number is the representation. - Andrej Bauer Any claims against me - based on whatever legal reason - resulting from the use of any code and/or ideas presented on this forum shall be excluded. #StayWithUkraine
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6/27/2011 8:55 AM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	dp cycle time is 7 ms . master application cycle is also 7 ms .
	Last edited by: Ziemens at: 6/27/2011 8:56 AM ... thank you ...
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6/27/2011 9:12 AM	Rate (0)
jacek d Platinum Member Joined: 9/23/2005 Last visit: 9/15/2025 Posts: 5116 Rating: (768)	So here's your answer. In fact cycle of your axis is pretty stable and constant - virtually. But it's calculated and sampled at very long intervals.
	Regards, Jacek What is confusing you is the fact that you never see a number but always its digit representation. So you end up thinking that the number is the representation. - Andrej Bauer Any claims against me - based on whatever legal reason - resulting from the use of any code and/or ideas presented on this forum shall be excluded. #StayWithUkraine
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6/27/2011 9:36 AM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	but how can i solve this issue ? this virtual axis is the master of several real axis on the machine , and also i am using it as a master for output cams ...
	Last edited by: Ziemens at: 6/27/2011 9:37 AM ... thank you ...
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6/27/2011 9:40 AM	Rate (0)
jacek d Platinum Member Joined: 9/23/2005 Last visit: 9/15/2025 Posts: 5116 Rating: (768)	Shorten DP and aplication cycle.
	Regards, Jacek What is confusing you is the fact that you never see a number but always its digit representation. So you end up thinking that the number is the representation. - Andrej Bauer Any claims against me - based on whatever legal reason - resulting from the use of any code and/or ideas presented on this forum shall be excluded. #StayWithUkraine
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6/27/2011 2:01 PM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	latest update : we need to installHotfix 6 for SIMOTION SCOUT v4.1 sp5 . where can we find it ? thanks
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6/27/2011 2:42 PM	Rate (0)
jacek d Platinum Member Joined: 9/23/2005 Last visit: 9/15/2025 Posts: 5116 Rating: (768)	Pls, have a look here.
	Regards, Jacek What is confusing you is the fact that you never see a number but always its digit representation. So you end up thinking that the number is the representation. - Andrej Bauer Any claims against me - based on whatever legal reason - resulting from the use of any code and/or ideas presented on this forum shall be excluded. #StayWithUkraine
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6/27/2011 3:10 PM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	but, we cannot download the hotfix 6 directly from the internet ? as a file ?
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6/27/2011 3:14 PM	Rate (0)
jacek d Platinum Member Joined: 9/23/2005 Last visit: 9/15/2025 Posts: 5116 Rating: (768)	At least not from Siemens website. Ask your Siemens rep.
	Regards, Jacek What is confusing you is the fact that you never see a number but always its digit representation. So you end up thinking that the number is the representation. - Andrej Bauer Any claims against me - based on whatever legal reason - resulting from the use of any code and/or ideas presented on this forum shall be excluded. #StayWithUkraine
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6/28/2011 5:03 PM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	We finally found that “The virtual axis is running exactly as it should and the output is the cause of the delay”. The simotion “master application cycle time” (5 ms) is the main reason behind the shifting of the period of the cam output. The virtual axis signal is connected to an output cam whichcontrols a fast digital output. When we run the machine at specific speeds (with period in milliseconds proportional to the cycle time 5 ms) the cam signal is exact and periodic. We tested the program on a d445-1 and reached the same conclusion as above. Now the problem is what to do when we run at speeds with period not proportional to 5 ms?
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6/29/2011 8:33 AM	Rate (0)
jacek d Platinum Member Joined: 9/23/2005 Last visit: 9/15/2025 Posts: 5116 Rating: (768)	What do you mean by "fast digital outputs" ? Is it TM17 ? How does your configuration look like ?
	Regards, Jacek What is confusing you is the fact that you never see a number but always its digit representation. So you end up thinking that the number is the representation. - Andrej Bauer Any claims against me - based on whatever legal reason - resulting from the use of any code and/or ideas presented on this forum shall be excluded. #StayWithUkraine
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6/29/2011 10:41 AM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	We are using the simotion onboard high speed outputs. It is mentioned that the simotion can handle "fast" output cams, so we are missing some special parameters related to the simotion cam output ? The configuration is:: Output cam type: Position-based cam , Processing cycle clock: IPO , Type of output cam value: Setpoints , Integrated fast output cam: High-speed output cam onboard , Logical operation: OR , HW address: 485 , Bit number: 4.
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6/30/2011 11:51 AM	Rate (0)
jacek d Platinum Member Joined: 9/23/2005 Last visit: 9/15/2025 Posts: 5116 Rating: (768)	If you checked "high-speed output cam onboard" thenthe IPO timewould not matter. Switching of the cam will be acurate down to hardware resolution. And you can't tell this by using Scout Trace tool in Simotion. Trace this within CU.
	Regards, Jacek What is confusing you is the fact that you never see a number but always its digit representation. So you end up thinking that the number is the representation. - Andrej Bauer Any claims against me - based on whatever legal reason - resulting from the use of any code and/or ideas presented on this forum shall be excluded. #StayWithUkraine
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This contribution was helpful to 1 thankful Users piotras256

6/30/2011 12:06 PM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	we are using a high-quality Fluke scope to monitor the simotion on-board fast digital outputs. but we notice that the output is varying in a range of 5 ms which is equal to the ipo time. it should be accurate down to 125 us as mentioned in the manuals, correct? thanks ...
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6/30/2011 1:28 PM	Rate (0)
jacek d Platinum Member Joined: 9/23/2005 Last visit: 9/15/2025 Posts: 5116 Rating: (768)	Do you have this option in cam configuration which I mentioned checked ?
	Regards, Jacek What is confusing you is the fact that you never see a number but always its digit representation. So you end up thinking that the number is the representation. - Andrej Bauer Any claims against me - based on whatever legal reason - resulting from the use of any code and/or ideas presented on this forum shall be excluded. #StayWithUkraine
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6/30/2011 1:34 PM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	yes, we have checked "High-speed output cam onboard"
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6/30/2011 1:48 PM	Rate (0)
jacek d Platinum Member Joined: 9/23/2005 Last visit: 9/15/2025 Posts: 5116 Rating: (768)	And how do you issue enable command to the cam ? In which task and how the task is executed ?
	Regards, Jacek What is confusing you is the fact that you never see a number but always its digit representation. So you end up thinking that the number is the representation. - Andrej Bauer Any claims against me - based on whatever legal reason - resulting from the use of any code and/or ideas presented on this forum shall be excluded. #StayWithUkraine
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6/30/2011 3:47 PM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	The cam is enabled in a “Switch output cam on” mcc command which is executed in a motion task. This motion task is started in the “BackgroundTask”.
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6/30/2011 3:55 PM	Rate (0)
jacek d Platinum Member Joined: 9/23/2005 Last visit: 9/15/2025 Posts: 5116 Rating: (768)	Is this motion task called once or you repeat calls ?
	Regards, Jacek What is confusing you is the fact that you never see a number but always its digit representation. So you end up thinking that the number is the representation. - Andrej Bauer Any claims against me - based on whatever legal reason - resulting from the use of any code and/or ideas presented on this forum shall be excluded. #StayWithUkraine
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6/30/2011 4:19 PM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	The motion task is started once in the backgroundtask, and not stopped. So the “Switch output cam on” mcc command is always running.
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6/30/2011 4:34 PM	Rate (0)
jacek d Platinum Member Joined: 9/23/2005 Last visit: 9/15/2025 Posts: 5116 Rating: (768)	Change the program, so the command is called once and the program is finished. Then check your output with the scope.
	Regards, Jacek What is confusing you is the fact that you never see a number but always its digit representation. So you end up thinking that the number is the representation. - Andrej Bauer Any claims against me - based on whatever legal reason - resulting from the use of any code and/or ideas presented on this forum shall be excluded. #StayWithUkraine
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7/1/2011 6:52 PM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	we did as you mentioned, but the problem remaining. it is really frustrating!
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7/2/2011 7:02 PM	Rate (0)
jacek d Platinum Member Joined: 9/23/2005 Last visit: 9/15/2025 Posts: 5116 Rating: (768)	Well, I do not have much experience with output cams on the on-board IOs. But we use TM17 and it works like a hell. If I don't forget I'll make some test on Monday with D435 and see the results.
	Regards, Jacek What is confusing you is the fact that you never see a number but always its digit representation. So you end up thinking that the number is the representation. - Andrej Bauer Any claims against me - based on whatever legal reason - resulting from the use of any code and/or ideas presented on this forum shall be excluded. #StayWithUkraine
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8/4/2011 11:51 AM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	help...!
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8/5/2011 2:48 PM	Rate (0)
DenisMor Posts: 344 Rating: (50)	Try configuring the high speed output cam signal in the real axis (setpoint, not actual) vs virtual axis and compare results. My expectation that the real axis configuration will give you 125us accuracy as the Sinamics hardware uses additional data from the real axis in Sinamics to extrapolate the exact time/position to trigger the signal.
DenisMor Posts: 344 Rating: (50)
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9/26/2011 4:44 PM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	DenisMor Try configuring the high speed output cam signal in the real axis (setpoint, not actual) vs virtual axis and compare results. My expectation that the real axis configuration will give you 125us accuracy as the Sinamics hardware uses additional data from the real axis in Sinamics to extrapolate the exact time/position to trigger the signal. hy sir, we tried your suggestion, but still same problem: the cam signal is dependent on the simotion scan cycle 7 ms. anyone has another idea? Thanks
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6/13/2012 10:45 AM	Rate (0)
Ziemens Silver Member Joined: 3/2/2007 Last visit: 9/9/2025 Posts: 990 Rating: (5)	still not working! i wonder if someone can send an example program for onboard fast output cam with virtual axis...
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