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EMC Compliance of SIMATIC Components

Created by: Navnag at: 12/16/2013 7:39 AM (14 Replies)

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12/16/2013 7:39 AM	Rate (0)
Navnag Platinum Member Joined: 11/21/2007 Last visit: 9/25/2024 Posts: 2325 Rating: (308)	Dear Experts In one of our projects ( Substation Automation ) we are using SIMATIC S7 + Scalance Components. The Specifications call for the following certifications : a) EMC Immunity : IEC-60870-2-1 Level 3 or 4 b) EMC Emission : IEC-60870-2-1 Calss-A The EMC Certifications for SIMATIC Components does not mention these certifications. Are SIMATIC Components compliant with the above standards ? ..or.. are the above standards equivalent to any of the EMC Standards for which SIMATIC components are already certified ? Thanks Navnag
	There is no such thing as the last bug in a program There are no stubborn bugs, There are only stubborn Debuggers.
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5/22/2014 1:24 PM	Rate (0)
Navnag Platinum Member Joined: 11/21/2007 Last visit: 9/25/2024 Posts: 2325 Rating: (308)	Maybe Campaign time will get me some replies ... this issues has still not been resolved.
	There is no such thing as the last bug in a program There are no stubborn bugs, There are only stubborn Debuggers.
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5/22/2014 1:36 PM	Rate (0)
Mike J Platinum Member Joined: 10/9/2007 Last visit: 10/4/2024 Posts: 1250 Rating: (115)	Hi Navnag check the ECC version of Scalance components. They are fitted for substation automation and comply with IEC61850-3. I am not sure if they comply with the norms you mentioned, but the datasheet should tell The ECC were specially developed for substation automation, before Siemens acquired Ruggedcom. Mike
	Energy Automation products: Sicam, Siprotec, Digsi
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5/22/2014 1:57 PM	Rate (0)
Navnag Platinum Member Joined: 11/21/2007 Last visit: 9/25/2024 Posts: 2325 Rating: (308)	Thanks Mike J We are now using Ruggedcom switches instaed of SCALANCE as they provide better features in the same price .. We have a confirmation from Ruggedcom Support that these comply with the required EMC standards. I had raised a support request also, This is the reply that I received : -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry but I can nothing say about IEC-60870-2-1 . The S7-300 has the following EMC standards: http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/view/de/12996906/0/en Chapter 7.2 Electromagnetic compatibilityand http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/view/de/8859629/0/en Chapter 1.2 Electromagnetic compatibility If you have further questions please contact your local siemens engineering support -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unfurtunately, this Does'nt help me. Cheers Navnag
	Last edited by: Navnag at: 5/22/2014 1:58 PM -- Corrected Copy-Paste Formatting ---- There is no such thing as the last bug in a program There are no stubborn bugs, There are only stubborn Debuggers.
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5/22/2014 2:01 PM	Rate (0)
Mike J Platinum Member Joined: 10/9/2007 Last visit: 10/4/2024 Posts: 1250 Rating: (115)	I forgot to write something about S7. I know some projects where auxiliary relays between S7 IO and the Field exactly were usedto achieve the EMC requirements. Yes, it is a lot of relays. This is one of the reason for using Sicam products. As they are done for substations and similar enviroment, they comply with such requirements. http://w3.siemens.com/smartgrid/global/en/products-systems-solutions/substation-automation/remote-terminal-units/Pages/overview.aspx
	Energy Automation products: Sicam, Siprotec, Digsi
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5/22/2014 2:21 PM	Rate (0)
Navnag Platinum Member Joined: 11/21/2007 Last visit: 9/25/2024 Posts: 2325 Rating: (308)	Mike J I forgot to write something about S7. I know some projects where auxiliary relays between S7 IO and the Field exactly were usedto achieve the EMC requirements. Yes, it is a lot of relays. This is one of the reason for using Sicam products. As they are done for substations and similar enviroment, they comply with such requirements. http://w3.siemens.com/smartgrid/global/en/products-systems-solutions/substation-automation/remote-terminal-units/Pages/overview.aspx Thanks again Mike Jfor the quick reply. Well.. we were considering TM/AK 1703 earlier but finally decided to use SIPLUS RIC ( Based on SIMATIC-S7 Hardware ). One would believe that SIPLUS-RIC Development team would have checked the various requirements for Substation Automation Applications. However when we contacted them about this EMC COmpliance Standard, This was the reply : ----------------------------------------------------------- We use the standard SIMATIC Hardware.I does not find certifications for the SIMATIC. Please ask the technical assistance of SIMATIC. -------------------------------------------------- Not very Helpful ... is it ? Cheers Navnag
	There is no such thing as the last bug in a program There are no stubborn bugs, There are only stubborn Debuggers.
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5/22/2014 2:33 PM	Rate (0)
Mike J Platinum Member Joined: 10/9/2007 Last visit: 10/4/2024 Posts: 1250 Rating: (115)	it is like "i cannot do it, but I won't tell it". If I'm not mistaken, Siplus is (or was) a commuication card (don't know if today they use a standard) and the library to have IEC 60870 protocols. before you confuse it, 60870 with sereval parts, one of them is about EMC, the others about the communication procols like 103, 104 and 101.
	Energy Automation products: Sicam, Siprotec, Digsi
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5/22/2014 2:57 PM	Rate (0)
Navnag Platinum Member Joined: 11/21/2007 Last visit: 9/25/2024 Posts: 2325 Rating: (308)	Thanks Once again .. Well... SIPLUS RIC is aset of Standard libraries ( In STEP7 ) for IEC-60870-5-101 ( Master / Slave ) IEC-60870-5-103( Master ) IEC-60870-5-104 ( Master / Slave ) You can use Standard SIMATIC Hardware or SIPLUS Hardware ( Which is a Ruggedised SIMATIC Hardware with increased Temperature / Humidity Limits. ). I Do not think there is any difference between EMC Compliance for SIMATIC / SIPLUS Hardware. I have tried to do some research in Google .. and it is quite confusing. There is an EU DIrective on EMC ( Attached ) whichshows this standard as superceded by Generic Standards (???? ) ... I suspect SIMATIC is compliant but no one has probably felt it necessary to check Cheers Navnag Attachment EU_EMC_Directive_2004_108_EC.pdf (318 Downloads)
	There is no such thing as the last bug in a program There are no stubborn bugs, There are only stubborn Debuggers.
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5/22/2014 3:33 PM	Rate (0)
Mike J Platinum Member Joined: 10/9/2007 Last visit: 10/4/2024 Posts: 1250 Rating: (115)	Navnag I don't think so. Some years ago we had to test some devices for EMC according to 61850-3. It says 2,5kV for 1 minute and 5kV for some seconds (something in this level). At that time if I'm not mistaken S7 had isolation for 600V, which is enough for industrial levels but not for substations. The first shortcircuiton the field and you have a nice toasted S7, just take barbecue sauce! I don't have these norms here and you won't find them on internet. Mike
	Energy Automation products: Sicam, Siprotec, Digsi
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5/22/2014 8:39 PM	Rate (0)
Navnag Platinum Member Joined: 11/21/2007 Last visit: 9/25/2024 Posts: 2325 Rating: (308)	Mike J Navnag I don't think so. Some years ago we had to test some devices for EMC according to 61850-3. It says 2,5kV for 1 minute and 5kV for some seconds (something in this level). At that time if I'm not mistaken S7 had isolation for 600V, which is enough for industrial levels but not for substations. The first shortcircuiton the field and you have a nice toasted S7, just take barbecue sauce! I don't have these norms here and you won't find them on internet. Mike Are you sure 2.5kV for 1 minute and 5kV for some seconds 2,5kV for 1 minute and 5kV for some seconds are part of the EMC Compliance .... Well most Modules in SIMATIC have 500V DCIsolation only. However there are some modules in SIMATIC like: 6ES7 321-1CH00-0AA0 , 6ES7 321-1CH20-0AA0 - 1500V DC Isolation 6ES7 321-1FH00-0AA0 - 4000V Isolation I am aware of dozens of SIMATIC Systems installed in SUbstations fro 415V to 220V working without any issue for more than last 5 years. Various Division of Siemens ( Industry, Mobility and Energy ) have been routinely using SIMATIC in SUbstations. I would be surprised if they have not checked its suitability. We are going to use our hardware in Substations with maximum voltage of 33kV only ... The point is ... are these requirements really needed ?? Food for thought Cheers Navnag
	Last edited by: Navnag at: 5/22/2014 8:41 PM There is no such thing as the last bug in a program There are no stubborn bugs, There are only stubborn Debuggers.
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