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Installing a replacement S5 103 CPU - DB6 issue

Created by: SingsBass at: 5/9/2013 5:00 PM (6 Replies)

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5/9/2013 5:00 PM	Rate (0)
SingsBass Posts: 4 Rating: (0)	Hello, My apologies, in advance, for the length of this post . I want to provide you with some detailed information, so that I stand the best chance of you being able to help me. Also, by telling you what I have already done in terms of troubleshooting, it should help to eliminate some "back and forth" messages, asking me to do things which I may already have done. First of all, I must tell you that I am new to the Siemens S5 PLC. In fact, I am new to PLCs in general. I do have a reasonable understanding (in general terms) of how PLCs function - but I don't yet have very much first-hand experience with them. I do have a lot of experience developing discreet machine controls using MCUs such as Atmel's AVRs, Microchip's PICs, etc., and I have lots of experience troubleshooting discreet machine controls (regardless of MCU brand) and electronics in general. In this particular case, I was referred to a company through a mutual contact who suggested that I would likely be able to troubleshoot an intermittent problem they were having with a machine which has been "orphaned" by its manufacturer. Originally, based on a previous technician's "quick assessment", it was thought that the problem was being caused by a particular relay module board. But that turned out not to be the case. I have traced the problem back to the fact that the existing Siemens S5 CPU 103 (6ES5 103-8MA02) is causing a particular pulse (on a digital output module) to be generated with a variable and inconsistent duration (ie. pulse width); it should be 1 or 1.5 seconds (depending on how the corresponding timer value has been set), but multiple oscilloscope samples have shown that the pulse width can vary wildly from 85ms to over 1 second in duration. By the way - there are several digital I/O modules in this machine, and I have swapped them around in several combinations to satisfy myself that the problem does not lie with the output module itself. I must also tell you that the CPU is exhibiting other strange symptoms - namely, when I attach the OP 393-II pendant (which came with the machine) to the CPU, the display shows a flashing 6 in the lower right hand corner. According to the manual, error 6 means "wire break" - so, I carefully disassembled the OP 393-II and verified end-to-end continuity for all of conductors in the data cable (and I flexed the cable while each conductor was under test, to ensure that it was not an intermittent break). This is just a guess on my part, but I suspect that whatever "timing" (clock) function is failing in the CPU must be common to both the Timers, and the communications port. I have sourced a replacement (used/warrantied) CPU module from a reputable supplier, and I have installed it in the machine. The OP 393-II pendant is able to communicate with it just fine (so, this proves that the 6 error mentioned above is an issue with the old CPU module, not with the OP 393-II). I went through an overall reset procedure, as documented in the S5 manual - to ensure that the memory was cleared of any test program which the supplier may have used to "certify" the condition of the used CPU module. I then inserted the EPROM module which had been in the old CPU, and went through a copy procedure, as documented in the S5 manual. During the copy procedures, I observed the expected Red LED behaviour - namely, flickering (indicating the copy was in process) followed by solid (indicating the copy cycle had completed, and was successful). I tried both the manual copy method, and the automatic method (conducting an overall reset between each attempt, so that I was always starting from the same point), and both methods ended in the same result - which I will describe below. Oh, one more thing - the old CPU has a battery in it, and is still holding its program and runtime values (timers, counters, etc.) in RAM. I also installed a (new) battery in the new CPU. The new battery (in the new CPU) was removed from time to time, as the manual dictated, in order to go through overall resets - but ultimately, when I was going through copy and/or run attempts, the battery was installed. Once the EPROM had been copied into RAM and the CPU was put into Run mode (via the switch on the front of the module), the Green LED (Run) did go solid. However, I always got a 89 on the OP 393-II display - indicating that the DB6 block was either not present, or incorrectly structured. At that point, I pressed DB, 6, ENT on the OP 393-II, in the hopes that I might be able to access DB6 and set its values appropriately. From the little bit of information that I have been able to find about DB6 (and that's not much ), I believe that I need to tell DB6 where to find the Timer block (which I think should be DB10 for this CPU - correct?) and the Counter block (DB11 - correct?). However, I was unsuccessful - no matter how I tried to interact with DB6, I kept getting various errors indicating that I was entering an out-of-range value, or and invalid value, etc. Truthfully, I'm not 100% convinced that I was actually interacting with DB6 itself. At that point, I removed the new CPU and put the old one back in, so that the machine would at least continue to function as it has been (ie. without one of its features working), while I resolve the issues of getting the new CPU programmed and set up properly. I would have thought that, if DB6 is such a critical block for the CPU to function properly, it would be part of is stored in the EPROM - but perhaps that is a misunderstanding on my part. I have conducted a considerable amount of research, trying to gain insight into how this PCL environment operates - but, I am just not finding the critical answers I need, so that's why I am posting here. So now, I have the following questions for you, or comments which require your insight ... 1) Can the OP 393-II pendant be used to "program" DB6?. 2) DB6 (and other critical info required in order for the PCL program to function) should come from the EPROM during a copy operation - correct? 3) Given the situation I find myself in, will I require the STEP5 software in order to get the new CPU up and running properly? Other comments? 4) If I require STEP5, is it (still) available for download? Is there are charge for it, or is it something that you normally provide with your CPU modules (similar to the way Atmel freely provides the programming environment for their AVR and ARM MCUs, etc.)? 5) Are the DB6 settings "universal" (typical), based on the particular CPU ... or, is the DB6 info something that I will have to try to get from the machine manufacturer? They are still in business, but appear to have reached their patience with me after just two emails ; they do not seem very motivated to provide any more assistance. They even told me that if I sent them the program files, they could burn another EPROM for me ... but wait a second, they are the manufacturer - they are the ones who should have the source code, not (necessarily) the end user! 6) Since, from a programming standpoint, the old CPU is still functional, I had thought about trying to extract the entire RAM contents (somehow), including the program and all settings, and transferring that into the new CPU. But since the old CPU doesn't even want to communicate with the OP 393-II pendant (remember the 6 error, above), I suspect there is a serious problem with data port on the old CPU. Would you agree? If so, it seems unlikely to me that I would be able to communicate with it at all (ie. regardless of whether I get a laptop hooked up to it, or a programmer of some kind, etc). Do you have any thoughts/insight? I realize that the S5 series is obsolete, and that the machine should really be converted to something more modern and supported (eg. S7). That will be something that we ultimately explore - and obviously, we would have to get PLC expert involved at that time (since such a conversion would be quite beyond my skill set ). In the meantime, I am just trying to get the machine up and running (properly) again, so that we can all plan and schedule the next step. And I think I'm really, really close to getting there - I just need some help to get past this DB6 hurdle. Mechanically, the machine is in excellent condition; it has not been abused, and has been well cared for. There is certainly no reason to consider scrapping it, other than this controller issue – which would really seem like overkill. Thank you for your time (to read all of this ), and thank you in advance for any assistance/insight you may be able to provide. Cheers! Brant
SingsBass Posts: 4 Rating: (0)
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5/9/2013 7:20 PM	Rate (0)
legacy support Silver Member Joined: 7/15/2008 Last visit: 1/21/2025 Posts: 382 Rating: (44)	Hello Brant Indeed a long expalnation. But this may help you with your DB6 issue http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/view/en/13904559 Please see Page 30 for the propper struckure of DB6. If DB6 is not created by the PLC Program on startup you may have to get Step5 programming software, thencreate and download DB6 to the PLC. In regards to the Timer. The lenght of the time can vary depending on the time base that is used (KT x.y) and the scantime of you PLC. Ifthe scan time ofthe PLC varies because of conditional progarm calls / execution and the use of interruped OB's it will effect the accuracy of the timer. regards / m.f.g

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5/9/2013 8:11 PM	Rate (0)
SingsBass Posts: 4 Rating: (0)	Hello, Thanks for such a quick reply, and the PDF of the OP 393 manual! Since the PCL Program does not seem to be creating DB6 on startup, it looks like I will have to do it in the Step5 software and download it into the PLC. So, the question is (#4 from my long post ) ... Is Step5 (still) available? As a download? Is there are charge for it, or is it something that you normally provide with your CPU modules (similar to the way Atmel freely provides the programming environment for their AVR and ARM MCUs, etc.)? I have searched the downloads the best that I can, but all I seem to be able to find are updates, patches, and hotfixes. Cheers! Brant
SingsBass Posts: 4 Rating: (0)
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5/9/2013 8:44 PM	Rate (0)
legacy support Silver Member Joined: 7/15/2008 Last visit: 1/21/2025 Posts: 382 Rating: (44)	Hello, You should be able to get Step5 for your local Siemens rep or distributer. He even amy have it installed on a Laptop and may be able to help you. But since Step 5 is a mature product it will be costly. The other alternative would be to get a 3rd party software and adapter for Step 5. Please see this link: http://www.process-informatik.de/produkte/pg-2000-komplettpakete Regards / m.f.g

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5/9/2013 9:39 PM	Rate (0)
SingsBass Posts: 4 Rating: (0)	Hello, Okay, great. Thanks for the insight, and especially, the link to the Step5 alternative software - that is not one I knew about. Cheers! Brant
SingsBass Posts: 4 Rating: (0)
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5/13/2013 6:13 PM	Rate (0)
SingsBass Posts: 4 Rating: (0)	Hello again, I contacted the manufacturer (again) regarding the DB6 issue, in the hopes that they might provide me with some some additional info. They have indeed responded, but what they told me is quite unexpected. I described my problem regarding the 89 error on the OP 393 panel (indicating that DB6 was missing/invalid), and I asked them if they could provide me with the values required for DB6 along with any other pertinent information they had available. They have responded by simply telling me "there is no DB6". Now I'm quite confused . I am told by the machine operator that, over the years, he has had to use the OP 393 to (re)set the Timer and Counter values into the machine (he calls this "programming" the machine ). Typically, this has been associted with a battery change. I suspect he was changing the battery with the power turned off - hence, the RAM will have been cleared ... but regardless, it is well established that the OP 393 panel has been used (on several occasions) in the past to "program" the machine (with the old CPU). Now, with the new CPU installed, the panel is showing me the 89 error - which is apparently related to a missing/invalid DB6. So, let's start there - can you confirm that 89 means there is a missing/invalid DB6? I have read, re-read, and re-read the OP 393 manual, and I am now beginning to think that DB6 is only required in the program in order to establish "defaults" for using the OP 393. Do you agree? Or, is DB6 always* required in order for the CPU to function/run? Since the OP 393 is "complaining" about not having a valid DB6 in the new CPU (assuming I am right about the 89 code), and since the machine operator was able to use the OP 393 to "program" (ie. set up) the machine with the old* CPU without encountering a *89 error, my logic is that there must be a DB6 in the old CPU. Would you agree? Since I am getting very little information from the machine manufacturer, any insight or clarification that you may be able to provide regarding DB6 and its functionality, in general, would be greatly appreciated. Cheers! Brant
SingsBass Posts: 4 Rating: (0)
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5/15/2014 7:31 AM	Rate (0)
GrasserF Posts: 340 Rating: (6)	new question is splittet to what software do i need to program a siemens cpu103?.
GrasserF Posts: 340 Rating: (6)
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