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IEC-103 Thrd Parties

Created by: Konstantin Larionov at: 6/30/2010 11:49 AM (9 Replies)

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6/30/2010 11:49 AM	Rate (0)
Konstantin Larionov Posts: 6 Rating: (0)	Hi all, Currently I’m working as substation automation engineer with SICAM SAS system, based on S7-400. I’m not sure is here is a right place to ask, but I will try. OK, in our system configuration I’m using protection devices from Schneider Electric, actually SEPAM S40, devices are connected to S7-400 by IEC-60870-5-103 protocol. Communication is successfully established, the point only that, measured values from SEPAM could not be recognizing by SICAM. Values is coming from SEPAM in NoneSigned 32-bits value, in Sicam I’m choosing ME_NC info type, witch means Floating 32-bit value. By this actions I’m getting wrong state of telegram (3072) in VAT table of Plustools. The others telegrams (SinglePoint telegram as example) are coming rightly. Is anybody have some ideas? Thank you.
Konstantin Larionov Posts: 6 Rating: (0)
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6/30/2010 7:24 PM	Rate (0)
dchartier Grandmaster-Expert Joined: 9/27/2006 Last visit: 9/7/2025 Posts: 12399 Rating: (2717)	Konstantin Larionov Hi all, Currently I’m working as substation automation engineer with SICAM SAS system, based on S7-400. I’m not sure is here is a right place to ask, but I will try. OK, in our system configuration I’m using protection devices from Schneider Electric, actually SEPAM S40, devices are connected to S7-400 by IEC-60870-5-103 protocol. Communication is successfully established, the point only that, measured values from SEPAM could not be recognizing by SICAM. Values is coming from SEPAM in NoneSigned 32-bits value, in Sicam I’m choosing ME_NC info type, witch means Floating 32-bit value. By this actions I’m getting wrong state of telegram (3072) in VAT table of Plustools. The others telegrams (SinglePoint telegram as example) are coming rightly. Is anybody have some ideas? Thank you. Hello Konstantin; I have very little experience in IEC protocols and Sicam, but I have worked with Sepam 40 (with Modbus RTU connections). Unsigned32bit is not at all the same as FloatingPoint 32-bit. In S7 terms, an Unsigned 32-bit value would be considered a DWORD, whereas a 32-bit Floating Point value would be a REAL datatype. So it would seem that you are not choosing the correct info type. Trying to read a DWORD as A REAL will give you very strange values! I would recommend you talk to our resident SICAM specialist, Mike J, as he would be the best reference on this subject. Hope this helps, Daniel Chartier

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7/1/2010 6:07 AM	Rate (0)
Konstantin Larionov Posts: 6 Rating: (0)	dchartier Konstantin Larionov Is anybody have some ideas? Thank you. Hello Konstantin; I have very little experience in IEC protocols and Sicam, but I have worked with Sepam 40 (with Modbus RTU connections). Unsigned32bit is not at all the same as FloatingPoint 32-bit. In S7 terms, an Unsigned 32-bit value would be considered a DWORD, whereas a 32-bit Floating Point value would be a REAL datatype. So it would seem that you are not choosing the correct info type. Trying to read a DWORD as A REAL will give you very strange values! I would recommend you talk to our resident SICAM specialist, Mike J, as he would be the best reference on this subject. Hope this helps, Daniel Chartier Thank you Daniel, The problem, that is no possibility to chose correct telegram type in Sicam, there are only 32-bit Floating Point and Unsigned-16bit values types are available. And as I understood, it is not possible to change value type in Sepam. Ok, I will try to contact Mike.
Konstantin Larionov Posts: 6 Rating: (0)
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7/1/2010 1:19 PM	Rate (0)
Mike J Platinum Member Joined: 10/9/2007 Last visit: 8/18/2025 Posts: 1281 Rating: (116)	Hi dchartier, thanks for the "specialist" I'm just learning Hi Konstantin Actually Sicam SAS is based in M7, not S7. Do you have a interoperabilität list for the device you are using? Which ASDU for these measurements are you using? If you check the norm, you will see that floating values are send with ASDU 4: Time-tagged measurands with relative time. This object is used to transmitted fault location (the distance from substation to the fault) and not measurements. General measurements as current, voltage etc. are send via normalized value using ASDU3 or 9. These values have 16 bits, the most significant bit isfor signal only. Mike J
	Energy Automation products: Sicam, Siprotec, Digsi
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7/1/2010 1:27 PM	Rate (0)
dchartier Grandmaster-Expert Joined: 9/27/2006 Last visit: 9/7/2025 Posts: 12399 Rating: (2717)	Mike J Hi Konstantin Actually Sicam SAS is based in M7, not S7. Do you have a interoperabilität list for the device you are using? Which ASDU for these measurements are you using? If you check the norm, you will see that floating values are send with ASDU 4: Time-tagged measurands with relative time. This object is used to transmitted fault location (the distance from substation to the fault) and not measurements. General measurements as current, voltage etc. are send via normalized value using ASDU3 or 9. These values have 16 bits, the most significant bit isfor signal only. Mike J You gotta be kidding me, I can't even locate a dictionnary that explains the hermetic phrases above! Hi dchartier, thanks for the "specialist" I'm just learning Yeah right! I've got some reading to do, I guess. Sicam sounds like a very different workld from what I am used to. Thanks for the info, I guess it will help Konstantin.. Regards, Daniel Chartier

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7/2/2010 5:38 AM	Rate (0)
Konstantin Larionov Posts: 6 Rating: (0)	Mike J Hi dchartier, thanks for the "specialist" I'm just learning Hi Konstantin Do you have a interoperabilität list for the device you are using? Which ASDU for these measurements are you using? General measurements as current, voltage etc. are send via normalized value using ASDU3 or 9. These values have 16 bits, the most significant bit isfor signal only. Mike J Dear Mike, Thank you for your efforts. There are something about interoperability in this manual.http://www.pq-ride.co.kr/dataroom/files/Sepam%20IEC60870.pdf. You are right, measurements’ coming in ASDU-9 (page 28 of Sepam manual). Page 39 make it clear that type of measured values from Sepam – 32-bit NoneSigned values, all except P,Q,S – are signed. So my question is – how can I read this values in SICAM? Thank you in advance.
Konstantin Larionov Posts: 6 Rating: (0)
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7/2/2010 10:30 AM	Rate (0)
Mike J Platinum Member Joined: 10/9/2007 Last visit: 8/18/2025 Posts: 1281 Rating: (116)	Hi Konstantin Page 39 shows information available in the "Tripping context files". Take a look at page 30, which explains the file transfer. It seems to me a complementation of the fault record. Sepam records these analogic values during a fault event. You cannot use these values to simply read the instantaneous active power or any othervalue. I think they will be recorded only during a fault, pickup or manual trigger. If you want to try to read these "files" (actually a set of values), in Sicam plustTools use a IWV type (Information With Value). This is the information type for the floating point values. See attachment. I'm not sure you will succeed. Read the entire "Appendix 2" for details. To read analog values use ASDU9. It seems that Active power is point 7 and Reactive power point 8. Mike J Attachment IWV plusTools.jpg (169 Downloads)
	Energy Automation products: Sicam, Siprotec, Digsi
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7/3/2010 10:24 AM	Rate (0)
Konstantin Larionov Posts: 6 Rating: (0)	Dear Mike, thanks a lot! You are right, I do not pay attention that 32-NS telegrams are in "Tripping context files". I was thinking they are a regular continues values (analog), witch I permanently need in my system.Ok what can I do to take a values from ASDU-9? I made parameterization in SAS accordingly Sepam manual (Sepam Param Screen.JPG, SAS_IED_Screen.JPG) I update a WinCC project thru GlobalWizzard (WinCC_Tags_Screen.JPG) I create a VAT table in plus tools (VAT_TABLE.JPG) I made same experiment in Sicam PAS!! with same parameters (PAS_Sreen.JPG) ProcVar file is also attached. Results: Sepam device is visible by SAS – SP message are coming with 0/1 values in 16-state Tag SICAM_SAS_SEPAM__SICAM_SAS_SEPAM_FdMEA9_Frequency_have value 0 and state 3072. In VAT table this (frequency) offset has a same value (see VAT_TABLE.JPG), offset 72 is SP message (means SICAM SAS\SEPAM\FdSetting groupA in serv) has a normal values. In Value Viewer of Sicam Pas software I get a valid measured values (with some small Frequency values) – this mean that PAS is understand this but SAS – not. Can you please tell me where I’m wrong? Thanks in advanceKonstantin. Attachment attachments.zip (158 Downloads)
Konstantin Larionov Posts: 6 Rating: (0)	Last edited by: Konstantin Larionov at: 7/3/2010 10:33 AM Last edited by: Konstantin Larionov at: 7/3/2010 10:31 AM
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7/5/2010 10:49 AM	Rate (0)
Mike J Platinum Member Joined: 10/9/2007 Last visit: 8/18/2025 Posts: 1281 Rating: (116)	Hi Konstantin Please make a printscreen from Value Viewer showing the values by enabling properties. Do you have voltage and current connected to Sepam? Mike J
	Energy Automation products: Sicam, Siprotec, Digsi
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7/9/2010 4:50 AM	Rate (0)
Konstantin Larionov Posts: 6 Rating: (0)	Mike J Hi Konstantin Please make a printscreen from Value Viewer showing the values by enabling properties. Do you have voltage and current connected to Sepam? Mike J Dear Mike, I'm sorry for delay, attached is a screenshort from PAS Valueviewer. Actually we still have no messurments circuits connection to sepam, do you think that is a urgent condition? Thank you. Konstantin. Attachment PAS_SEPAM.JPG (188 Downloads)
Konstantin Larionov Posts: 6 Rating: (0)
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