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Can you have AS-i and 24V in the same cable?

Created by: Pontus at: 5/11/2011 2:34 PM (10 Replies)

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5/11/2011 2:34 PM	Rate (0)
Pontus Posts: 51 Rating: (1)	Hello! Can you have the AS-interfaeand 24V aux in the same cable? If so, can you use any round4x1,5mm2-cable? /Pontus
Pontus Posts: 51 Rating: (1)
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5/11/2011 3:06 PM	Rate (0)
dchartier Grandmaster-Expert Joined: 9/27/2006 Last visit: 3/23/2025 Posts: 12344 Rating: (2707)	Hello Pontus; As-i uses a 30V DC power supply to transmit both power andtransmission. (as a digital overlay on the power signal). This power is generally within the specs of a 24 V circuit. See the www.as-interface.com website for more information (look for the As-i Academy section for details on the bus specifications). Although the use of the flat As-i cable is recommended, many manufacturers (Weidmuller, Schneider, Siemens) offer As-i modules with screw terminals for connection of As-i power ansd signal. Look at the Products section of the As-i link shown before, or in this Siemens As-i System manual: http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/view/en/26250840 Hope this helps, Daniel Chartier

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5/11/2011 3:52 PM	Rate (0)
Pontus Posts: 51 Rating: (1)	Hello, not sure what you are trying to say... The customer don´t want a flat ASi-cableand thenodes don´t need it.They want to use a normal round cable. I know that you can use normalunshielded 2x1,5mm2, one för ASi and one for the 24V. But the question is if you can use4x1,5mm2 instead of 2x1,5? And if you can, do you need a special cable for that, to separete the 30V-communication and the 24V? Why install 2 cables if you can use one instead?
Pontus Posts: 51 Rating: (1)
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5/11/2011 6:29 PM	Rate (0)
dchartier Grandmaster-Expert Joined: 9/27/2006 Last visit: 3/23/2025 Posts: 12344 Rating: (2707)	Hello Pontus; I agree that there is some misunderstanding on what you are asking. As-i uses only one pair of wires (flat or round) to carry both the power and the signal. If extra power is needed (for digital outputs for example) a second cable is used, normally seperate from the first.If using the As-i flat cable, a standard yellow cable is used for mixed power and signal; for extra power you will use a second flat cable, with black jacket. Please show a sketch of the connections you want to do, maybe you can make it more clear. Hope this helps, Daniel Chartier Edit; I understand your client does not wish to use As-i flat cables. However, understanding that there are 2 different types of standard As-i cable, one for power/signal and one for extra power (for special requirements) should help you understand that you should use seperate cables also when you choose to use non-standard cables for As-i buses. D.C. Attachment As-i cables.JPG (143 Downloads)
	Last edited by: dchartier at: 5/11/2011 6:36 PM Added attachment
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5/11/2011 6:59 PM	Rate (0)
Pontus Posts: 51 Rating: (1)	Hello again, thank you for trying to help! I know that ASi only uses one pair of wires, the yellow flat. And if you need an extra external 24V you use a flat black cable. You say "normally seperate from the first". That´s my question, can you use the same cable for both the ASi and the extra 24V aux, instead of separating them in two cables? Or do you get interferance problem?Of course you don´t use a flat cable in this case since they only are 2x1,5, that´s why I say "normal round cable" with 4x1,5. The nodes are placed in a cabin and have terminal screw-connection and needs extra 24V power. I have constructed ASi-installations with >200 nodes, so I know how it normally works - with two separate cables. *But what I don´t know is if you get interference on the bus if you combine the Asi and the external 24V in the same* cable.**
Pontus Posts: 51 Rating: (1)
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5/11/2011 10:06 PM	Rate (0)
TRENT_TECH Experienced Member Joined: 11/30/2007 Last visit: 1/6/2025 Posts: 59 Rating: (0)	In understand what you are saying. I have not seen anyone else speak of running one multiconductor cable to run the Asi and aux. power. I would think that it would work, but not sure about interference. You normally would not run a power cable and communication cable together anywhere, if you could keep it that way. If you try it, I would check the communications with an as-i analyzer before cutting the aux. power on and then checking after cutting the power on to see if any problems occur. But one thing to think about is what kind of support you may not get by installing the system in that manner. Personally, I would set up a small scale model maybe and hook some items up with the 4 conductor cable and see if it works that way first. I would really like to see the outcome. We have several As-i networks where I work and have issues with everything being installed correctly. We've done hours of testing different setups and running analyzers on everything to get our networks running as perfect as possible. Please repost what you find so that I can keep a record of this idea. Trent Bullock

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5/17/2011 1:10 PM	Rate (0)
simoncocker Regular Member Joined: 1/26/2006 Last visit: 9/2/2024 Posts: 6 Rating: (0)	Have done exactly this many times with zero problems.

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5/17/2011 2:46 PM	Rate (0)
Pontus Posts: 51 Rating: (1)	TRENT_TECH: If we use it, I will tell you. But since it probably won´t be possible to test it before everything is installed we will not do it because it seems like not many people have done it. If not Siemens tells me that I can do it, but i doubt they dare to say that... simoncocker: How long distance on the cables have you used? Have you tested withalmost 200 meters cable?
Pontus Posts: 51 Rating: (1)
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5/20/2011 4:24 AM	Rate (0)
TRENT_TECH Experienced Member Joined: 11/30/2007 Last visit: 1/6/2025 Posts: 59 Rating: (0)	We do have a few lines with longer line segments pushing that. But we've found issues even with shorter sections. We actually installed a repeater on our last installation to get the communications running without data retries. We also use extenders on all of our networks, just because we've seen it really help out on retries and possible interferences. We have some definete 200 meter sections being installed right now on some new equipment. I am waiting for complete installations before I connect an analyzer up to see how good they work. Allof that is being done by outside sources, so I'm curious about what the analyzer will show.There are not many slaves on the lines, so I could almost guess that it will work with little errors or slave response retries. We will probably add extenders to them, just to make sure. We've had such good response from those gadgets that it'll be worth the minute to add them in.

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5/20/2011 4:30 AM	Rate (0)
TRENT_TECH Experienced Member Joined: 11/30/2007 Last visit: 1/6/2025 Posts: 59 Rating: (0)	I think I might try it on a training unit that we built. I will even try some higher voltages on one set of conductors to see what I find on an analyzer. I'll try to put some different loads on the 24v to see what I see. I'm curious about what cable you are using. Are you thinkingusing a shielded cable or not? I've heard you can use both, but the preferred installations, according to documents that I read, is that you are supposed to use non shielded. But I talked to a Siemens rep about that and he said you can use shielded also. Just curious about what you were thinking about, because I want to test out what you are thinking about doing. I might just test shielded and non shielded cables.

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