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EMC Compliance of SIMATIC Components

Created by: Navnag at: 12/16/2013 7:39 AM (14 Replies)

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5/23/2014 9:08 AM	Rate (1)
Mike J Platinum Member Joined: 10/9/2007 Last visit: 10/4/2024 Posts: 1250 Rating: (115)	Hi Navnag I don't know if the voltages and times I mentioned are exactly in the norm you need, these are values taken from Siprotec - except that 5kV is for microseconds, not seconds. Take a look at a catalog from Siprotec and you can see, for example: Insulation test Voltage test (100 % test) all circuits except for auxiliary voltage and RS485/RS232 and time synchronization. Standards: IEC 60255-5; ANSI/IEEE C37.90.0 2.5 kV (r.m.s. value), 50/60 Hz Impulse voltage test (type test) all circuits, except communication ports and time synchronization, class III; 5 kV (peak value); 1.2/50 μs; 0.5 J 3 positive and 3 negative impulses at intervals of 5 s EMC tests for interference immunity; type tests Standards IEC 60255-6; IEC 60255-22 (product standard) EN 50082-2 (generic specifi cation) DIN 57435 Part 303 High-energy surge voltages (Surge) IEC 61000-4-5; class III Auxiliary voltage: From circuit to circuit: 2 kV; 12 Ω; 9 μF across contacts: 1 kV; 2 Ω ;18 μF Binary inputs/outputs: From circuit to circuit: 2 kV; 42 Ω; 0.5 μF across contacts: 1 kV; 42 Ω; 0.5 μF Detailed info at http://w3.siemens.com/smartgrid/global/en/products-systems-solutions/Protection/overcurrent-feeder-protection/Pages/7SJ64.aspx# go to Download/Catalog. Maybe the manual has even more information About the "33kV": the devices are not intended to be protected from the 33kV itself, but from the inducted voltages created by the 33kV or short-circuits in the medium/high voltage. Depending on several factors, 33kV may induct high voltages on the metal parts near the live conductors. 33kV is medium voltage and Siprotec orany local IO deviceare normally installed just above the circuit-breaker, in the same cubicle. But this is not the only problem. On High voltage substations, except for GIS, the HV devices are on the field, far away from Siprotec. Siprotec is connected electrically to the fields for binary input/output, current and voltage measurement. When there is a short-circuit on the field, the inducted voltage reaches Siprotec by these wiring from the field. This is the reason why the binary IO must also have 2kV isolation, not only the analog inputs. Mike
	Last edited by: Mike J at: 5/23/2014 9:08 AM Energy Automation products: Sicam, Siprotec, Digsi
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5/23/2014 10:20 AM	Rate (0)
Navnag Platinum Member Joined: 11/21/2007 Last visit: 9/25/2024 Posts: 2325 Rating: (308)	Thanks for the detailed reply. If I follow you correctly, SIMATIC hardware is not suited for Substation Control Applications ... If that is so ... why is SIEMENS activaly promoting it for these applications ? Surely Siemens wouldbe having a big reason for this .... Siemens Own reference list gives dozens of installations with SIMATIC in identical applications. Lot of Hardware is coming from Siemens Germany ( SITRAS ) with SIMATIC Hardware built in. That is one of the reasons we had selected SIMATIC hardware ( For reasons of compatibility and common spares ) .... Frankly... I am thoroughly confused now ... Cheers Navnag
	There is no such thing as the last bug in a program There are no stubborn bugs, There are only stubborn Debuggers.
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5/23/2014 10:43 AM	Rate (0)
Mike J Platinum Member Joined: 10/9/2007 Last visit: 10/4/2024 Posts: 1250 Rating: (115)	Hi Navnag maybe the project has some kind of isolators, or the project/customer don't want/need EMC hardening. Ourprevious generation of Sicam, the Sicam SAS (based on M7)or Sicam RTU (based on S7-400) had speciall IO boards for these requirements. The colleagues from automation call them "S7 with Sicam IO" The mini and microRTU(S7200) didn't have special cardsand when need, we installed isolators. In electrical systems the protection is more important then control and supervision. Imagine that you have a feeder for an important factory or hospital. If you loose the protection completely (there are backups made by other devices on other parts of the system), you must switch the feeder off. If you lose control/supervision only, the feeder may still feed the load. Mike
	Energy Automation products: Sicam, Siprotec, Digsi
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5/23/2014 12:49 PM	Rate (0)
Navnag Platinum Member Joined: 11/21/2007 Last visit: 9/25/2024 Posts: 2325 Rating: (308)	This discussion sure is an eye opener for me.... To Continue the Discussion, I have extracted the attached dataS7-300 Manual. I however wonder how that compares with SICAM as I could not find SICAM EMI compatibility data even after lot of Googling ... May be you can help out with this... Mike J maybe the project has some kind of isolators, or the project/customer don't want/need EMC hardening. Ourprevious generation of Sicam, the Sicam SAS (based on M7)or Sicam RTU (based on S7-400) had speciall IO boards for these requirements. The colleagues from automation call them "S7 with Sicam IO" The mini and microRTU(S7200) didn't have special cardsand when need, we installed isolators. Well .. for sure I did'nt see any special modules in the other SIMATIC systems installed. Mike J In electrical systems the protection is more important then control and supervision. Imagine that you have a feeder for an important factory or hospital. If you loose the protection completely (there are backups made by other devices on other parts of the system), you must switch the feeder off. If you lose control/supervision only, the feeder may still feed the load. Agree with you 100% ... but sometimes the systems are Over-Specified ... even when not needed. Cheers Navnag Attachment S7300_EMI_Compatibility.pdf (342 Downloads)
	Last edited by: Navnag at: 5/23/2014 12:50 PM There is no such thing as the last bug in a program There are no stubborn bugs, There are only stubborn Debuggers.
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5/23/2014 1:34 PM	Rate (1)
Mike J Platinum Member Joined: 10/9/2007 Last visit: 10/4/2024 Posts: 1250 Rating: (115)	hi you won't find the docsin internet. But here you have some information fromcatalog of the digital input card used in Sicam SAS/RTU The advantages of the DI32 digital input module: nNo need for expensive intermediate relays thanks to the integrated isolation up to 2.5 kV. - Fast, reliable signal acquisition with a real-time resolution of 1 ms. Insulation test voltage 2.5 kV AC (rms), 3.5 kV DC Insulation test voltage between process inputs and electronics (acc. to IEC 255-5): 2.5 kV (rms), 50 Hz, 1 min or 3.5 kV DC Impulse voltage (acc. to IEC 255-5, class III): max. 5 kV, 1.2/50 ms
	Energy Automation products: Sicam, Siprotec, Digsi
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