6/26/2016 9:13 PM | |
Joined: 6/23/2008 Last visit: 10/9/2024 Posts: 1168 Rating: (282)
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Hello G_R_E_Y, when I was talking about "Standard-Library", I ment the counterpart to the APL-Library of that kind of library. Standard-Library is often used by PCS7-engineers as a colloquial word for the non-APL-version of a library to wich also an APL-Library exists. In e.g. "PCS7 Library V x.x" is the counterpart to "PCS7APLibrary V x.x and colloquial named "Standard Library" or even "old Standard Library". But of course it not a correct technical term and it's missleading because there is also a library with the name "Standard Library [current standard library] shipped with PCS7. For better understandig I will use now the term 'Non-APL-Library'.
Yes, you are right. I thought there is also a block update mentioned in the 'without utilization'-documents. Obviously I was wrong. Maybe I was confused because the documents for Servicepacks contain a section "Updating Blocks". You can check that in the documents "Software update from PCS7 Vx.x SPx. to PCS7 Vx.x SPx on this page. But what they also say in the 'without utilization'-documents is that you have to install the (old) library-versions in that case manually (see chapter "Installation of Additional PCS7 Libraries"). Additionally they say (quoted from "Process Control System PCS 7 Software update without utilization of new functions", for PCS7 V8.2): "If you install or remove an older version of the PCS 7 Library, PCS 7 Basis Library or PCS 7 That means you always have to install twice (in case of a freshly new PCS7 Setup and keeping the old blocks in the project). Your old library and again the current version. Also they say (quoted from same document) : Only use the latest library versions for PCS 7 libraries. The above qoutes may sound a little bit contradictory and I can only tell you what I would do.... forget the options from previous post. I think we have some missunderstanding there (in non of the 2 options I would do any block update in a first step). I will try to explain it again... If I would decide not to change the project to APL with the upgrade (in e.g. by following the 'without utilization'-documents) and hence stay on the non-APL versions of the library, instead of installing e.g. the V6.1 libraries, I would get the latest version of the non-APL-libraries from the mentioned link. And this would include performing the update of block types then, even if I just follow the 'without utilization'-documents. In e.g. I would install PCS 7 Library V7.1 SP3 Update 4, PCS 7 Library Faceplates V7.1 SP3 Update 1, PCS 7 Basis Library V7.1 SP3 Update 11 on my Engineering Station with PCS7 V8.2. Of course I would do that with the upgrade to the latest version, in any intermediate step (here V7.1), I wouldn't do any block update. That was just a 'If-case'....Before I say what I really would do, some information.... You should know that the non-APL-Library 'PCS 7 Library Vx.x' contain among others the non-APL drivers. And the 'PCS 7 Basis Library Vx.x' contains the counterpart blocks for the @Charts wich are generated and interconnected to the drivers during compilation of CFC. So this two libraries go hand in hand with each other. Additionally you need the PCS 7 Library Faceplates Vx.x because this is the OS-part to the (non-APL-) 'PCS 7 Library Vx.x'. Between all other libraries wich are shipped with the setup of PCS7, there are no dependencies under each other. You have the CEMAT-Library and I don't know if this library comes with it's own driver blocks, but you said already that motors, valves etc. come from this library. Also take into consideration that a V6.1 project may contain a lot of blocks from the (non-APL-) PCS 7 Library V6.1 (beside of CEMAT blocks in your case). Usually most of the program is made with blocks from PCS 7 Library Vx.x. Not only the blocks for motors, valves, measurements come from this library but also a lot of blocks for the logic. So replacing all blocks from the non APL-Library to blocks a APL-Library by manually replacement in CFC could be like re-creating the entire program (think also about all the parameters and texts). Even if CEMAT-Library is used in your project, I could imagine that there are sill a lot of blocks from PCS 7 Library Vx.x. used (or at least a lot of instances of a few blocks) for the logic. Think also about the fact that with the APL even simple blocks like AND and OR blocks are FCs now (because of the passing through of the status). What I would do: After just updating the projects database (by following the jobs from the 'without utilization'-documents, but without installation of the V6.1 libraries) I would start think about manual replacement of non-APL-blocks by APL-blocks and/or updating blocks from the non-APL-library. For the CEMAT blocks I would do the update now. Like I said, I have no knowledge about CEMAT-library. But because you said that that the FB-numbers are still the same in the current version, it sound to me that they maybe don't have any APL-features. So maybe I would also think about to replace CEMAT-blocks by APL-blocks. Maybe I would keep the blocks with special functions for the cement industry, but replace blocks for motors, valves, measurements to get a real "V8 look and feel". But at first I would just update all the block types from CEMAT and think about that later. I think CEMAT-blocks and APL-blocks can coexist in a program. I think I would replace all the drivers to APL-drivers in any case. This prevents you from installing any old 'basis-library' and makes the project "fit for the future". As drivers must not be mixed from APL and non-APL you must replace all drivers. After deleting all @Charts and performing a 'clean up' you should be able to compile the CFCs already after that job. I would do an analysis of the project regarding the used block types from PCS 7 Library Vx.x and especially to get an idea how many instances of this blocks are used in the program. The cross-reference of CFC is very useful for this job. 1.) If the analysis comes to the result that there are still a lot of instances from PCS 7 Library Vx.x are used in the project, I would update those blocks by blocks from PCS 7 Library V7.1. If there remain blocks wich are OS relevant from PCS 7 Library V7.1, I would also install 'PCS 7 Library Faceplates V7.1'. 2.) If the analysis comes to the result that only a few instances remaining from 'PCS 7 Library Vx.x', I would replace all those blocks by APL-blocks. By this you can get rid off any old library and hence no need to install them (also not in case of future updates). When going by 1.) you create the possibility that blocks from APL and non-APL libraries can co-exist in the program (exept drivers). This gives you also the possibility to replace more and more blocks from non-APL to APL-blocks later in futher steps.
Because as of PCS7 V8.0 the non-APL libraries are not installed anymore by default. Also there is no non-APL-library 'PCS 7 Library V8.x'. The non-APL-Library PCS 7 Library Vx.x was mantained only up to 7.1 by Siemens. In case of replacing all non APL-blocks by APL-blocks you don't need to install any (older) non-APL-Library.
That's a quite good question...I think that updates on the blocks from all that other libraries shipped with PCS7 are rare but possible. If there are newer versions available they come with a newer version of Step7 or CFC. Check your project (by the block folder) if blocks of those libraries are used (e.g. by Author; SIMATIC, ELEM_400, ELEMENTA). Check if the version of that blocks are newer in the library. That's all what I can say....
Usually those are all libraries from wich a PCS7 project is created. But if the project was not created by you the only way to be sure is look to the block folder of the S7 program and find out wich blocks are used and from wich libraries they originate. By default libraries are stored in 'C:\Program Files (x86)\SIEMENS\STEP7\S7libs'
I wouldn't do the update in the first step, because you need the libraries (in case of not repalcing all to APL blocks) on your final PCS7 V8.2 installation anyway. So better do it the last step. And yes, I personally would prefer to install and update to V7.1 blocks rather then installing and keeping V6.1 blocks. But like I said, only if you don't replace all non-APL blocks.
1) That's correct. 2) You are right regarding the protocols. It also happened to a colleague of me that during an update he lost changed attributes and didn't recognize. Later on there where malfunctions in the program because interconnections where deleted. But you could avoid that... Delete all blocks from the project library. Then copy all blocks from the CPU block folder (offline) to your project library. Then start copying the blocks from the libraries. When message "block already exists, do you want to overwrite it ?" apears, say "adjust attributes". Best regards... |
"Expert" does not necessarily mean Siemens employee. Please cross-check your requirements always with official Siemens documentation. Also "Experts" are pleased about feedback. Please don't send support requests as PM. Questioners who don't follow up their thread will be put to my list of users to be ignored. |
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7/8/2016 11:10 AM | |
Joined: 5/26/2011 Last visit: 8/5/2024 Posts: 456 Rating: (7) |
Good day sir Mark! I'm sorry for the long delay, I'm really learning a lot and I think we're close to resolving my inquiries, so I really hope you're still there!
Where is this stated? Of course you would install old Libraries if you don't wanna update blocks (without new function) and still use same library in the future, but if not, if you wanna update blocks with non-APL or replace them with APL, why would you need to install the old library?
I have a question here, what do they mean by "remove an older version of PCS7 Library"? If you upgrade software version, it's either you install old library (if you wanna retain and future use old blocks) or not isn't it, what's there to remove? Anyways, what's the reason why we should install latest library in case we want to install old library (if wanna retain and future use old blocks)? Maybe this is related to what you've said about drivers?
I see, when you say "without new function" you seem to mean "without replacing blocks with APL", because what I understood by "without new function" is "without any block updates at all" (still use old library), but I understood your point, so let's just go with that.
This is a very useful information, thanks a lot.
What do you mean by "driver block", if they are those "CH_AI", "CH_AO", etc., I think there's none on CEMAT and project still use those on the non-APL library.
The OS part I think would be CEMAT library (since tech blocks came from it), so I think the faceplates came from it.
Ya, I know this, and this is the painful part of going APL. A side question, when I scan APL vs non-APL library (on PCS7 v7), I find a few that is on non-APL but seems not on the APL, for instance the compare group. If in case there really won't be compare group on APL, I think it can still be retained from non-APL since they can co-exist right?
Is this for real, AND & OR are now FCs?! They are now to be drawn from APL library?
By "database" do you mean the archive variables? I read on the "preparing for the software update" section that this seems only relevant if you have CAS or Storage Plus? The plant don't have either of these 2, but of course they have a lot of long term archiving variables for curves. Could this also be backed-up? It is located on the OS, and not on the ES, so it's not included during multi-project archive.
Ahm, I'm not sure I can just do this. If I would replace CEMAT by APL, then I guess I just shouldn't use CEMAT at all, but this is what the plant have since the beginning and I think it does its job well. What is that seems good in APL?
Now this sounds important, by "drivers" do you mean those like "CH_AI", etc? I think the counterpart on APL are those "PCS7AnIn", etc? What's the seem high advantage of it? In this case, what would happen to the interaction with the system generated from Basis Lib? When you say "this prevents you from installing any old 'basis-library'" do you mean I shouldn't install any PCS7 Basis Library at all? Why is that? Ahm, this @Charts are those what you said being generated by non-APL drivers from Basis Lib right, where are those found? And what does "clean up" do?
I think the existence of CEMAT blocks for tech.object would decrease the number of non-APL blocks to be updated. I think if I would replace the drivers and if I plan to have APL in the future (which seems the thing Siemens actually wants to happen) anyways maybe it's better to directly replace to APL than do version update (well if your not rushing). So it seems APL Library would cover all the ojects from PCS7 Library vx.x (non-APL) and Basis Library, that using APL wouldn't not need installation of any of those libraries? |
Last edited by: G_R_E_Y at: 7/11/2016 3:44:16 AMOn your "projects database" |
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7/11/2016 9:16 AM | |
Joined: 6/23/2008 Last visit: 10/9/2024 Posts: 1168 Rating: (282)
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Hello G_R_E_Y
In e.g. it is stated in this document in chapter 6.4 (from page 43 on). An old library is like an additional library because from V8.x on the (old) non-APL-Libraies are not installed anymore by the standard installation procedure. When you come from V6.x and your target is V8.1 or higher, you can't perform an "Update Installation" because your Windows operating system has to be changed before. I am not sure, but it may be that you even can't install the V6.x libraries on Win 7. Anyhow, if I would decide to keep parts (or entire) of the project on (old) non-APL-blocks, I would install the latest version of the non-APL-blocks. At least, you get the last improvements on the non-APL-library and specially more devices supported by the driver wizard. If you replace all non-APL-blocks by APL-blocks, no need to install any non-APL-library. If you install an old library you need to install the current libraries again emediately after installing the old library (before working with the project). The same when you ever uninstall an old library (in case you don't need that library for your new Projects anymore). I guess that's necessary for the driver wizard to work correctly. Detailed information why this is needed, I think, you get only from Siemens. For the other questions see my first answer.
Yes, I mean those CH_AI, CH_AO etc...
You think it or know it ? If I would have to deal with an project wich wasn't created by my self I would check it out (in e.g. filter for blocks with OCM-possible in PO-view and then look to the author).
I think for every block of PCS7 Library V x.x there is a new block in the PCS7APLibrary V x.x. Maybe it is in an other group or Siemens has merged two non-APL-blocks in one APL-block. They also invented new group (family) names. Give me an example of a block from wich you think there is no counterpart in the APL. Additionally, I think, you could ask Siemens (by a support request) to give a list wich APL-block covers the functionallity of a non-APL-block. Yes, as per my expirience, blocks from non-APL and APL-libraries can co-exist in a program, with the exception of driver blocks. Driver blocks must be used all non-APL (CH_DI, etc) or all APL (Pcs7DiIn etc.) in a program. But for different programs (of different AS) in a project you could use for one non-APL-drivers and for the other APL-drivers.
Yes, at least if the status should be forwarded (only relevant for APL). In e.g. the APL-driver's output are of type 'Struct' containing the status of the signal. All blocks in APL forward the status from the inputs to the output. This is why in APL even the previous BOPs are FCs in APL.
No, I don't mean the archive variables... I mean the PCS7-project itself. In e.g. you need to convert CFC and the WinCC-project (Project-Migrator) by the procedures mentioned in the documents.
It's hard to explain...There are more functions in the blocks of APL and also in the faceplates. The entire look and feel is totally renewed. You need to see it yourself to understand... Counterquestion: What is good in CEMAT? I shouldn't judge, because I don't have expirience with CEMAT. But I have seen plenty other libraries and my personal opinion is: They are all dispensable...especially because APL-blocks cover a lot of functionallity of plenty other libraries now. But I didn't say kick out all CEMAT-blocks, you could keep the ones with special functions for cement industry...But for motors, valves, PID-contollers and other standard blocks with faceplate, I am relative sure I would go for APL.
Yes, by drivers I mean those like 'CH_AI' and yes; 'Pcs7AnIn' is the counterpart... In e.g. an advantage is that in APL there are now also drivers for inverters (FbDrive) wich can be used not only for Siemens inverters and starters like SIMOCODE and similar devices from other vendors. APL is simply the future. I said 'any old basis-library'... The current PCS7 Basis Library will be installed automatically with the standard-setup. The current PCS7 Basis Library is used in combination with non APL-drivers and APL-drivers. But in case non-APL-drivers (CH_AI etc.) are used in the program together with the current Basis Library they must be as of PCS7 Library V7.1 SP3. Correct. You can see the @Charts in component view when the chart folder is selected. All those charts names begin with an @. 'Clean up' deletes all blocks wich are not used in the program from CFC and in the 2nd step from the block folder. I know it sounds strange, but each block wich was ever used in CFC is something like "registered" in CFC.
If you meant to decrease the number of blocks to be replaced, you are right. It is up to you if you replace (some) non-APL blocks by APL-blocks first and then update the remaining non-APL or doing opposite direction. Just keep in mind that for the drivers you have to do the replacement of non-APL by APL in one step. I mean, you will not be able to compile the program till you have replaced them all for one CPU and I think a 'clean up' may be required. Later I will come to your new questions... |
Last edited by: mark1507 at: 7/11/2016 9:36:11 AMLast edited by: mark1507 at: 7/11/2016 2:30:35 PMLast edited by: mark1507 at: 7/11/2016 3:13:41 PMLast edited by: mark1507 at: 7/13/2016 9:35:47 PM"Expert" does not necessarily mean Siemens employee. Please cross-check your requirements always with official Siemens documentation. Also "Experts" are pleased about feedback. Please don't send support requests as PM. Questioners who don't follow up their thread will be put to my list of users to be ignored. |
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