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PLC needs to stop for download unnecessarily

Created by: ThaKibosh at: 7/5/2013 9:48 AM (10 Replies)

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7/5/2013 9:48 AM	Rate (0)
ThaKibosh Bronze Member Joined: 5/31/2011 Last visit: 2/11/2025 Posts: 190 Rating: (31)	I've finished my first "medium sized" project with TIA Portal v12 Upd 3 (TP1200 & CPU315-2PN/DP) and beside it being still extremely slow, there is another bigger issue with it. A lot of times you need to stop the PLC for downloading the project. Just now, I just took some snapshots of some datablocks, wanted to download them back to the PLC so there is now difference between offline / online, and TIA needed to stop the PLC for downloading. We also make software for critical processes. So untill I know a solution against stopping the PLC, we cannot use TIA Portal for those clients. It's simpel with a critical process, whenever the system started, it may not stop again. So I need to be able to download any software changes always without stopping the PLC. Does anyone know a way how to do this in TIA portal?

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This contribution was helpful to 3 thankful Users umencho BhaPraJ Bofely

7/5/2013 12:09 PM	Rate (0)
William_B Posts: 5225 Rating: (1203)	ThaKibosh I've finished my first "medium sized" project with TIA Portal v12 Upd 3 (TP1200 & CPU315-2PN/DP) and beside it being still extremely slow, there is another bigger issue with it. A lot of times you need to stop the PLC for downloading the project. Just now, I just took some snapshots of some datablocks, wanted to download them back to the PLC so there is now difference between offline / online, and TIA needed to stop the PLC for downloading. We also make software for critical processes. So untill I know a solution against stopping the PLC, we cannot use TIA Portal for those clients. It's simpel with a critical process, whenever the system started, it may not stop again. So I need to be able to download any software changes always without stopping the PLC. Does anyone know a way how to do this in TIA portal? Hi-ya, Your experience is shocking. Using Step 7 V5.x does not have much PLC stopping issues for S7-300 PLCs. TIA might have other rules? My experience is with TIA V11 (Basic) utilised on S7-1200. I have found that anything that makes the system/software thinks there is a structural change in an existing datablock, will make it ask for a PLC stop. There are 2 exceptions.. when you create a new block or when you add temporary variables. I do wonder if the "optimised" selection for DBs has something to do with this? That is my 2c. w
William_B Posts: 5225 Rating: (1203)
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7/5/2013 12:12 PM	Rate (0)
AutoGen_405229 Experienced Member Joined: 2/18/2013 Last visit: 3/12/2024 Posts: 102 Rating: (23)	This depends on the kind of change you made / you would like to download in run mode. - If you want to change the hardware configuration you definitely need to stop. - If you want to change some code in OBs, FBs, FCs you don't need to stop. - If you want to change a DB it depends on the kind of change you want to do. E.g. if you didn't change the size of the DB you can remove the DB from the download list, if you are sure your change doesn't cause an inconsistency. Example: if you just changed the name of a variable in a DB, the TIA Portal may want to download that DB because something changed. But in this case you wouldn't get any problem if you remove this DB from the download list, because names are not used in the PLC and the variables are still where they have been before. The important points are: you must not change the size of the DB and you must not change the relative offset of variables you are reffering to in the code. This "feature"is sometimes used to expand DBs in Run mode: you may add some variables named reserve1 ... reserve10 of type INT and download such a DB without using the reserve-variables. Later you can start to use them by renaming reserve1 to some name which makes sense and start to use this variable by changing the code of one or several blocks. Then when you want todownload the changes you can remove the DB from the list of blocks without any problems because the variable has been there from the beginning.

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7/5/2013 1:21 PM	Rate (0)
ThaKibosh Bronze Member Joined: 5/31/2011 Last visit: 2/11/2025 Posts: 190 Rating: (31)	I only changed some values, true, you can go without downloading it, but then you can't monitor it online, TIA will request to download it first. Like in Step 7 v5.5, it is always important to have identical timestamps for datablocks. Guess this is also true for TIA. That is what I have learned during the years. Anyway, in Step 7 v5.5 you can download a complete program to a running PLC without any issues. Just when the HW is changed you need to stop it. In TIA you can not and that is a big problem for us.

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7/5/2013 1:42 PM	Rate (0)
AutoGen_405229 Experienced Member Joined: 2/18/2013 Last visit: 3/12/2024 Posts: 102 Rating: (23)	ThaKibosh ...true, you can go without downloading it, but then you can't monitor it online O.K., I see I didn't know that monitor doesn't work in this case. At least I thinkitwouldn't be necessary to prevent monitoring as long as the size of the DB is the same.

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7/5/2013 2:33 PM	Rate (0)
AutoGen_405229 Experienced Member Joined: 2/18/2013 Last visit: 3/12/2024 Posts: 102 Rating: (23)	Maybeanew FAQ about this theme is interesting for you, but it's only validfor the combination TIA-Portal and S7 1500. In this configuration all kinds of DB-changes in Run Modeare supported, even new variables. Unfortunately at the momentthere seems to beonly a german version available: http://support.automation.siemens.com/WW/view/de/76278125.

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7/5/2013 2:44 PM	Rate (0)
ThaKibosh Bronze Member Joined: 5/31/2011 Last visit: 2/11/2025 Posts: 190 Rating: (31)	Thx for the tip. When my college is back I'll ask him to check it. I can't read german. Didn't work yet with a 1500.
	Last edited by: ThaKibosh at: 7/5/2013 2:44 PM
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7/5/2013 3:38 PM	Rate (0)
BhaPraJ Silver Member Joined: 1/28/2012 Last visit: 7/23/2024 Posts: 519 Rating: (83)	ThaKibosh I've finished my first "medium sized" project with TIA Portal v12 Upd 3 (TP1200 & CPU315-2PN/DP) and beside it being still extremely slow, there is another bigger issue with it.A lot of times you need to stop the PLC for downloading the project. Just now, I just took some snapshots of some datablocks, wanted to download them back to the PLC so there is now difference between offline / online, and TIA needed to stop the PLC for downloading.We also make software for critical processes. So untill I know a solution against stopping the PLC, we cannot use TIA Portal for those clients. It's simpel with a critical process, whenever the system started, it may not stop again. So I need to be able to download any software changes always without stopping the PLC.Does anyone know a way how to do this in TIA portal? I have also faced same problem. . If I need to download new timer data block or have change any data block, then TIA ask to stop CPU. . Even if I want to download only 1 block, Then TIA will compile overall project then it alows user to download. . Which causes unnecessary time delay during commissioning. . Hope in later version, SIEMENS will rectify and solve such problem. .
	Regards, BhaPraJ
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7/5/2013 4:11 PM	Rate (1)
William_B Posts: 5225 Rating: (1203)	Pranav J. Bhagat I have also faced same problem. . If I need to download new timer data block or have change any data block, then TIA ask to stop CPU. . Even if I want to download only 1 block, Then TIA will compile overall project then it alows user to download. . Which causes unnecessary time delay during commissioning. . Hope in later version, SIEMENS will rectify and solve such problem. . Dear Pranav J. Bhagat, I have myself been very verbal about the design choices that Siemens has made on the TIA software. IMHO, the example you hang on their door is unfair. The biggest issue is that the industry (us) are pushing the suppliers to make their PLCs work more like computers. To have an instrument that can change the way it works by changing (user changable) software - the motion controller on the S7-1200 being an example. PLUS we wish to have one piece of software to handle it all. It is difficult (although not impossible) to make structural changes to existing DB blocks and expect the PLC to handle it on-the-fly. There is a reason why we in the computer world need to "defrag" our disks from time to time. We'd like to avoid that for the PLC. I also long for the day gone by that I can call up a timer whenever I want to, without regard to the structure of the DB. My solution is to declare more variables (timers) than I need when doing a development. As backup I have a global DB with some timers for temporary measure. Dowloading a new global DB can be done without stopping the PLC. The issue ThaKibosh refers to seems more likely an error in judgement on the part of the software.. thinking a structural change in the DB has taken place. What we all can agree with is that in the "old" days, Siemens was known for releasing software/hardware when it was fully tested and stable. Now we user become the beta testers. But again that is our fault.. we want things to develop faster yet pay less which tries to balance out with companies' profit margin. My 2c. w
William_B Posts: 5225 Rating: (1203)
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This contribution was helpful to 2 thankful Users Alex Mol grrrrrroooo

7/5/2013 5:24 PM	Rate (0)
BhaPraJ Silver Member Joined: 1/28/2012 Last visit: 7/23/2024 Posts: 519 Rating: (83)	William B. Pranav J. Bhagat I have also faced same problem. . If I need to download new timer data block or have change any data block, then TIA ask to stop CPU. . Even if I want to download only 1 block, Then TIA will compile overall project then it alows user to download. . Which causes unnecessary time delay during commissioning. . Hope in later version, SIEMENS will rectify and solve such problem. . Dear Pranav J. Bhagat,I have myself been very verbal about the design choices that Siemens has made on the TIA software. IMHO, the example you hang on their door is unfair. The biggest issue is that the industry (us) are pushing the suppliers to make their PLCs work more like computers. To have an instrument that can change the way it works by changing (user changable) software - the motion controller on the S7-1200 being an example. PLUS we wish to have one piece of software to handle it all.It is difficult (although not impossible) to make structural changes to existing DB blocks and expect the PLC to handle it on-the-fly. There is a reason why we in the computer world need to "defrag" our disks from time to time. We'd like to avoid that for the PLC. I also long for the day gone by that I can call up a timer whenever I want to, without regard to the structure of the DB. My solution is to declare more variables (timers) than I need when doing a development. As backup I have a global DB with some timers for temporary measure. Dowloading a new global DB can be done without stopping the PLC.The issue ThaKibosh refers to seems more likely an error in judgement on the part of the software.. thinking a structural change in the DB has taken place.What we all can agree with is that in the "old" days, Siemens was known for releasing software/hardware when it was fully tested and stable. Now we user become the beta testers. But again that is our fault.. we want things to develop faster yet pay less which tries to balance out with companies' profit margin.My 2c.w I am not personally against SIEMENS. . Actually I love to work with SIEMENS and SIEMENS products. . Want to work more with SIEMENS. . But sometime gets irritated due to such non-ignorable situation. .
	Regards, BhaPraJ
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