simple speed or positioning axis

Hey there,

i'ld like to getting some help in  my TIA v15.1 project. I cannot find any solutions to get my reaaally simple code working. The goal is to teach upcoming students in my university of applied sciences the commisioning of the hardware named below. They are supposed to set correct harware configurations like IPs, TOs, telegramms and so on. After doing so i want to start easily and just add one axis (e. q. a speed axis or a positioning axis)
Unfortunately i'm not able to get this working. After tons of reading, trying and trial and error i shortened the whole program to only 2 - 3 blocks.

1. SINA_Infeed to witch on the energy -> 2. MC_Power to unlock at least on drive-> after this, if MC_Power.status would get TRUE, i could finally take the next steps and programm some movements

But so far i always got stucked at MC_Power, and now even earlier at SINA_Infeed. I cannot overcome the 16#8600 issue. And if i hadn't this failuer, there would be technology alarm 421 / 431 and so on, which are talking to me, that my encoder or encoder communication is broken. But this is not true. If i re-download my regulary programm, besides this studends-teching-project, everything is fine.

Might someone of you help me =) ?

At this hour, there is no error else in CPU and CU ( as u can see in pic below ), while trying to activate SINA_Infeed. I need to get rid of 16#8600 but cannot handle section 9.1.5 in
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/attachments/109475044/Sinamics_blocks_for_TIAP_V14_042020_EN.pdf

my hardware is

• CPU 1516 3 PN/DP [6ES7516-3AN01-0AB0]
  
• CU 320 [6SL3040-1MA01-0AA0]
  
• S120 Smart Line Module [6SL3130-6TE21-6AA4]
  
• S120 Single Motor Modules (2 x) [6SL3120-1TE21-8AD0]
• 2 x 1FT7 Servo Drives with absolute encoder [1FT7084-5SC70-1BG0]
  
• IPC377E [6AV7230-0DA20-2BA0]

Many thanks and best regards

Hi,

the (first) problem is that your SINA_INFEED has a "0" at the inputs HWID (STW and ZSW) -> here you need to enter the Hardware ID of the telegram to the infeed module.

You need to configure telegram 390 at your infeed. Then the PLC will give a hardware ID for this telegram. Please check the given HW ID and write this ID to BOTH inputs at the SINA_INFEED.

At the moment the SINA_INFEED cannot communicate to your Smart Line Module -> so it is not turned on and thus the MC_POWER command will fail because the drives cannot be switched on without enabled infeed.

Hi RB91,

many thanks for your reply. To defend myself i have to admit that those things you mentioned were a copy and paste failure. i rebuilt the project to shrink its content to absolute minimum. While doing so i apparently forgot to enter those IDs. But you can be sure, that this is not the core issue ^^ .. if i'ld compile this, i would have been smashed by a hint to enter that IDs. This is not the question =) So pls enter 273, 273 and carry on with trouble-shooting =)

regards

Edit: Yah, but i see, the 16#8600 thing i was complaining about is gone now. OK fine ! So can you reproduce the MC alert 421 / 431 with my project??

Edit 2: There were 2 more failures in my TIA-file. The "Preload" and "Enable" Button weren't "invert bit" like intended. Were "set bit" instead. It seems, that hanging before a screen and trouble-shoot since days take its toll ..

Would you kindly post the updated screenshot of the current logic?  I tried to follow your defensive rebuttal and edit 1 & 2, but now I do not know what's really broken.

Zottel86

Hi RB91,

many thanks for your reply. To defend myself i have to admit that those things you mentioned were a copy and paste failure. i rebuilt the project to shrink its content to absolute minimum. While doing so i apparently forgot to enter those IDs. But you can be sure, that this is not the core issue ^^ .. if i'ld compile this, i would have been smashed by a hint to enter that IDs. This is not the question =) So pls enter 273, 273 and carry on with trouble-shooting =)

regards

Edit: Yah, but i see, the 16#8600 thing i was complaining about is gone now. OK fine ! So can you reproduce the MC alert 421 / 431 with my project??

Edit 2: There were 2 more failures in my TIA-file. The "Preload" and "Enable" Button weren't "invert bit" like intended. Were "set bit" instead. It seems, that hanging before a screen and trouble-shoot since days take its toll ..

Hi Einstein,

many thanks 4 ur reply.

The last days i spent some time to work on on my testbench. So if i projected the positioning axis only  (axis 1) i could control its behavior without any issue. No failures, correct working infeed, speed  etc.

Today i just wanted to import my 2nd servo drive (same hardware as 1st), but this time as a speed axis. So new TO, e.q. telegramm 3 (32 bit speed value + 1 encoder), some addings in OB's FC aaaaannnnnd nothing is working.

Please refer to this project "KomFö_Test_1" in my dropbox [snip]

The screenshot near by is displaying my actually issue. If i added the 2nd axis, suddenly MC 421 occures and axis 1 and axis 2 cannot be reached anymore. there are no changes for axis 1. i dont get it. At least MC_Power of axis 1 (positioning axis) is supposed to still working.

Edit 1: attach this picture. my preview is displaying, the posted reply is not ...

Hmm...MC421 often occurs when Safety is active on the drive (e.g. STO is active so that the TO cannot control the axis). Could that be in your case?

Or other idea: Is the infeed in operation before you switch on the drives?

Hi Rob

i can suspend that safety is active while turning on that drives.The process is the same as before adding speed axis.

start cpu, cu and ipc > quit safety > push IPC button to run FC in OB (a la if but0 is activ then compute FC in OB, not a big deal) > then push button to preload infeed > then push button to enable infeed > then push button to enable MC_Pow (in former case only ax1, in this case ax1 + ax2) > ...

There is no act while safety could triggered. Especially if i hadn't add ax2 (speed axis) the ax1 was working really fine. there were no changes adressed to ax 1, not in programm not in hardware. i dont get it, why ax1 is complaining too, after adding ax2. maybe some communication load on PN-Line ??? Maybe the CPU isn getting the whole words of ax1. But this programm is absolutely minimalistic .. there are just 6 main blocks. the OB cycle lasts round about 1 - 2 ms

This link may help: https://support.industry.siemens.com/tf//WW/en/posts/problem-related-to-mc-alarm-421-with-using-plc-s7-1500/225163 

Also, being a person teaching future engineers, I expected you to find the above link on your own (which you very well may have in the last 10 days).

What's the current status of the project, 10 days later?

Have you stopped trying simultaneous speed and motion control, and try just enabling 1 axis at a time to see which TO is causing the fault.

What fault(s) exist in the CU and drive objects?

What fault(s) exist in the PLC diagnostics buffer?

Why are there so many implicit datatype conversions in your project?  Those implicit conversions can create problems where none should exist, making you look over there---------------> when the problems is really over there <--------------

If it were me, I'd approach it slightly differently.

• Avoid depleting DC bus by not allowing simultaneous active TOs - supported by logic that toggles off ENABLE for opposite TO if other TO is attempted to be enabled.
• Clean up network 1 implicit data conversions - Insert SCL "network" in place of network 1 and perform data conversions there.  Easier to nest conversions and avoid implicit conversions
• Verify every range by using a watch table to exercise full range of each adjustment and verify values are correct in the drive's parameters, paying close attention to scaling and datatypes
• View drive alarm buffers and PLC diag buffer after any fault
• Capture SINA_xxx block outputs, saving them to another DB when any error is detected
• If no infeed error, it says it is ready or in operation, axis MC_Power EN inputs get enabled
• In short, I would model my efforts after a working Siemens example application to prevent faults from occuring.

It may make sense when enabling the infeed, to do that, wait for the proper outputs to turn on, then enable one axis, verify no error, then enable 2nd axis, and verify no error.  Same for moving an axis (in a circle over and over, or positioning it).

In this controlled startup, you see exactly what causes the fault.

When turning on and giving a command to a drive, just do one drive at a time.

These guidelines are not given as a design philosophy.  Instead, as a way to learn how to use the TO's and Sinamics blocks together to properly perform required tasks.

Once the infrastructure is sound and the learning is done, you are welcome to revert back to simultaneous startups and TO activations.

For now, limit activities and track block outputs. Use them to your advantage.  Ignore them at your own peril!

Zottel86

Hi Einstein,

many thanks 4 ur reply.

The last days i spent some time to work on on my testbench. So if i projected the positioning axis only  (axis 1) i could control its behavior without any issue. No failures, correct working infeed, speed  etc.

Today i just wanted to import my 2nd servo drive (same hardware as 1st), but this time as a speed axis. So new TO, e.q. telegramm 3 (32 bit speed value + 1 encoder), some addings in OB's FC aaaaannnnnd nothing is working.

Please refer to this project "KomFö_Test_1" in my dropbox [snip]

The screenshot near by is displaying my actually issue. If i added the 2nd axis, suddenly MC 421 occures and axis 1 and axis 2 cannot be reached anymore. there are no changes for axis 1. i dont get it. At least MC_Power of axis 1 (positioning axis) is supposed to still working.

Edit 1: attach this picture. my preview is displaying, the posted reply is not ...

 Hi Einstein,

again many thanks for your reply. i was working on another tasks of my master thesis for a couple of days so far.

That link, you mentioned, i've already seen. Unfortunately it's not helping. Like i said, the simpleness of my project is ridiculous. i only have a sina_infeed, a mc_power and a mc_movevelocity in my FC which is called in OB.

So in configuration 1: the hardware config is automatically loaded (DRIVE-CLiQ). i can see both hardware axis. so here, in config 1, i only load one TO into my CPU, e.q. axis 1 as a positioning axis. the sina_infeed is correctly working. there is no need to be aware of quckly user interaction and possible mc-operation at once.

on second 1: i push preload button for sina infeed (hmi)
on second 3: 1 push activate / execute for sina infeed -> infeed howls and is working
on sencod 5 or later: i push execute mc_power of axis 1 (for now positioning axis)
on second 10 or later: i set wanted speed settings in hmi and push execute mc_movevelocity.

everything is fine, everthing is working.

configuration 2:
here i only use 2nd axis as a speed axis.( just to show future students, you can add those servos as you wish.) So i delete TO of axis 1 and insert TO of axis 2 in project. i adapt the buttons in OB's FC to trigger that functions. And again..

on second 1: i push preload button for sina infeed (hmi)
on second 3: 1 push activate / execute for sina infeed -> infeed howls and is working
on sencod 5 or later: i push execute mc_power of new axis 2 (for now speed axis)
on second 10 or later: i set wanted speed settings in hmi and push execute mc_movevelocity.

everything is fine, everthing is working.

So even axis 2 for its own is working correctly if there is no further TO in project. so there is no need to hint on broken cables and encoder and so on, like in most threads.

And now configuration 3:
i step back, add TO of axis 1 again as a positioning axis. i add another MC_power, MC_movevelo and adapt the input output signals to hmi button again.
5 ridiculous simple blocks in my project. and again:

on second 1: i push preload button for sina infeed (hmi)
on second 3: 1 push activate / execute for sina infeed -> infeed howls and is working
on sencod 5 or later: i push execute mc_power 1 of positioning axis 1 -> No Error flag or error ID on MC_Power 1 & 2 but a popup error in diagnostic tab. < MC_421.. of 2nd axis ... Source PLC >

and it doesnt matter if i hit MC_power 1 button first, than MC_power 2 button or both at the same time or vise versa. the more i test and trigger mc_power on button the more likely the other axis pops MC 421 ... too.

nothing is working, no movings.

bote errors attached in screenshot (unfortunately german ui)

--------------------------------------------

so far.

unknown user

What's the current status of the project, 10 days later?

same mud =/

unknown user

Have you stopped trying simultaneous speed and motion control, and try just enabling 1 axis at a time to see which TO is causing the fault.

 i never did this only =) i always tried e.q. to first enable mc_power of axis 1 and nothing else. same prob.

unknown user

What fault(s) exist in the CU and drive objects?

noone, see screenshot. i always check that i see both categories. those failures of cpu and those failures of CU

unknown user

What fault(s) exist in the PLC diagnostics buffer?

 communication to superior control disturb, communication to superior control disturbed, ..., error MC421...

no more details =(

unknown user

 Why are there so many implicit datatype conversions in your project?  Those implicit conversions can create problems where none should exist, making you look over there---------------> when the problems is really over there <--------------

 i understand you ! But those type conversions and calculations are only to handle the user input e.q. speed in rpm instead of dregrees/s. Of course scl is way better, but with focus of students tutorial, they will have to do FUP on practce 1. later scl. i added the type conversions because the values i excpect are waaaaay shorter than long real. i dont want the cpu is moving 64 bit if it could move 32 bit instead. those blocks came up while ax1 was working fine and i got tired to type in degrees and so on. those 4 blocks are not a big deal i think:

right now i got rid of ax2 again and ax1 is running fine again (linke described above). my actually duty cyle is
shortest: 1.035 ms
recently: 1.721 ms
slowest: 37.030 ms

so if i add 2nd axis (like described above), slowest will increase to ~130 ms, rest is same, even if i did not triggered the MC_Power, rather tried to

unknown user

 It may make sense when enabling the infeed, to do that, wait for the proper outputs to turn on, then enable one axis, verify no error, then enable 2nd axis, and verify no error.  Same for moving an axis (in a circle over and over, or positioning it).

 see above. it's what i did: nice and sloooooow =)

unknown user

 In this controlled startup, you see exactly what causes the fault.

 unfortunately not so far, because i dont get the real hint, how to overcome with mc421. it s a communication thing, yah ok, but ITS NOT a broken cable like 90 % of forum entries alert. And its not a safety issue as well.

unknown user

 When turning on and giving a command to a drive, just do one drive at a time.

 ofc

unknown user

For now, limit activities and track block outputs. Use them to your advantage.  Ignore them at your own peril!

 assumed MC_Power error id is throwing an error for a straw of time and after immediately no error, if i would save this output in a db instead of watching glasses functionality, it would immediately overwritten, right ? (in next duty cycle with "noerror")

So way thanks for your response so far. it s nice to see, someone is listening =) i ld like to install teamviewer and would like to show you guys but unfortunately the programming terminal with TIA only has 1 LAN interface and its necessary to hold the PN ip instead of auto ip to get internet. And i m not speaking english really business fluent *g*

UPDATE: i believe i've finally found an "undocumented" solution - or maybe a bad one ...

+ remember my system: cpu1516 + cu320 + infeed + 2 x single motor module + 2 x siemens servo 1FT7 + IPC377E

+ so far i always tried to build up my future student-tutorial-project-thing with default cycle settings. so

CPU: Profinet X1: I/O communication: 1 ms
CU: Profinet X150: telegramms: Drive 1 & 2: Organisation Block (OB): MC_Servo (OB91)
OB91: commom: cycle: sychronous to bus: multiplier: 1
-> lead to
CU: advanced options: synchronization: x check in synchronous: sending cycle 1 ms & application cycle 1 ms

+ even though i cannot believe that that's the way to do it right (with that hardware), which is supposed to perform precisely, dynamically and quickly, i started to increase the cycle time at all. so now my settings are:

CPU: Profinet X1: I/O communication: 2 ms
CU: Profinet X150: telegramms: Drive 1 & 2: Organisation Block (OB): MC_Servo (OB91)
OB91: commom: cycle: sychronous to bus: multiplier: 2
-> lead to
CU: advanced options: synchronization: x check in synchronous: sending cycle 2 ms & application cycle 4 ms

+ result: for now: no more MC 421 alerts and communication things. i easily can MC_Power on axis 1 and 2 and carry on with certain MC-Blocks.
+ this is ridicolous! if that would be a common solution (to reduce the cycle time in SINAMICS S120 hardware) i would like to read it offically!

! i hope you can understand what i tried to describe =) so i say gentle: many many thanks for your help. Maybe i'll ask next question thing tomorrow if somthing pops up ^^ so far i'm happy to finally carry on !!!