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Level measurement with Radar sensor

Created by: Tomy Master at: 7/20/2010 10:03 AM (20 Replies)

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8/9/2010 5:51 AM	Rate (0)
Chook Experienced Member Joined: 6/13/2006 Last visit: 9/21/2023 Posts: 201 Rating: (8)	Tomy Master Dear friends... Would you please show the link or order number where I can find a radar sensor for level measurement, within a silo which is 80m inheight and should stand 400 degrees Cel.. Any kind of help i will be more than greatfull. Regards. Tomy. Hi Tomy, I thinkSitrans LG200/7ML1303- 2xxx: is the rightradar foryour measurement. There are several optionsthatIcan choosefrom PIA-selector to fix with the application. Assample image below Attachment untitled.JPG (282 Downloads)
	[IMG]http://i17.tinypic.com/66b7jas.jpg[/IMG]
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8/9/2010 9:11 AM	Rate (0)
SonicRanger Posts: 151 Rating: (8)	Hi Tomy Master, Indeed I recommend the LR460 for this applicationif you can confirm that the temperature in the top of the silo does not exceed 200 degC. Maybe you can contact your local Siemens representative to discuss this application. They could bring you in contact with theradar configuration centre in Peterborough, Canada. The LG200 guided wave level radar is definetly not suitablefor your application, since the maximum range of the cable version is 22,5 m. Best Regards, SonicRanger.
SonicRanger Posts: 151 Rating: (8)
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8/10/2010 2:37 AM	Rate (0)
Chook Experienced Member Joined: 6/13/2006 Last visit: 9/21/2023 Posts: 201 Rating: (8)	I agree the LR460isup to 100m range measurement but the the temperature is only allowed maximum200 degree C, it really not safe for this application. If the Silo can be divided into 3 zones then we caninstall3x LG200 without any problems. regards, chook
	[IMG]http://i17.tinypic.com/66b7jas.jpg[/IMG]
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8/10/2010 8:45 AM	Rate (0)
SonicRanger Posts: 151 Rating: (8)	Dear Chook, Dividing an existing silo into zones does not seem a realistic scenario. If it was possible, where would you mount the LG200 housing? Outside of the silo wall? ( don't know if this is possible). And what are you doing then with the cable? And what when the customer needs measuring during filling?I really cannot imagine how this would work with more measurements. The only question I would ask is: be sure if it's true that the temperature at the location of the sensor (in top of the silo) is really 400 degC. If it is, please look for a device that is capable of these temperatures, if it is not,use the LR460. Another possibility (but these will be a special, contact Siemens): mount a 80m long iron strip in the silo whichis isolated from ground. Connect this to a Sitrans LC500 head (capacitance measurement) with MSP2002-3 transmitter (6600 pF). This is how they measured bunkers with dry minerals (>200 degC) in asphalt stations in my country. As long as the application stays hot&dry, you will get a fairly good measurement. And Chook, about the PIA-selector: if I choose for a combination "solids & continuous" and 400 degC, a message shows up "No products match your request". I think you chose for liquids & continuous. The only choice left then are the coaxial probes, which can only be top mounted, and are definetly not suitable for solids! Best regards, SonicRanger.
SonicRanger Posts: 151 Rating: (8)	Last edited by: SonicRanger at: 8/10/2010 8:54 AM Last edited by: SonicRanger at: 8/10/2010 8:53 AM
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8/11/2010 3:02 AM	Rate (0)
Chook Experienced Member Joined: 6/13/2006 Last visit: 9/21/2023 Posts: 201 Rating: (8)	Dear SonicRanger ,You’re right, above LC200 has a specification for 400 degree C which is suitable for liquid application, I also can’t find the right part for solid. Have a nice day chook
	[IMG]http://i17.tinypic.com/66b7jas.jpg[/IMG]
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8/12/2010 5:36 AM	Rate (1)
danw Gold Expert Joined: 3/28/2010 Last visit: 11/8/2024 Posts: 1074 Rating: (214)	1) Temperature If the temperature at the top of the silo where the level transmitter is mounted is truly 400°C, then the only technology I am aware of available is nucleonic gamma nuclear radiation from outfits like Ronan Measurements (US). If the top of the silo is 200°C or below, then an LR460 might work. 2) Material's dielectric constant The reflection of radar energy (upon which the technology relies) is dependent upon the dielectric constant of the material in the silo. A material description "solid and gray" is insufficient to determine the type of material and its dielectric constant. 3) Use during filling Filling can create very dusty environment. The LR460 has shown some ability to shoot through dust in cement applications. How dusty is this material? None? some? a virtual fog of dust? If the filling flow stream interrupts a radar's beam path, then the energy is either absorbed or deflected elsewhere, either attenuating a normal signal return or producing false echoes. Some attention has to be paid to where the filling flow stream is in relation to where a radar might mount and how the material filling stream is likely to intersect. 5) mounting location: How close to the sidewall is the access point? Does the radar have to fit in a nozzle? 6) Power Is there AC power available for the instrument? 7) application data sheet When dealing with Siemens, they're sticklers about having a radar application data sheet filled out? The blank forms are located here: http://tinyurl.com/25ze4hu

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8/25/2010 5:44 PM	Rate (0)
Toppie Posts: 74 Rating: (3)	Dear Tomy Master What you have been told about the application data sheet is true. It asks all of teh questions, puts all of the information in one place and protects both parties from wrong info and wrongly spec'ed equipment. It would be nice if your application could be done with non contact. You don't mention the material, but my guess is it is clinker. If so, it is abrasive to contacting technologies. No one should spec a solution without knowing the material. You also provide the material temperature. Is this a normal or an upset condition? If this is a silo constructed of cement, 400C will quickly damage the silo. The temperature limitation for the LR460 of 200C is as measured at the flange, not the product. So if flange temperature is limited to 200C, the device can be installed right out of the box. If slightly higher, there are other tricks that can be used. My advice wouldbe to talk to gather all of the data and talk to your local Siemens office and ask them to put this request to the technical boffins. Cheers
Toppie Posts: 74 Rating: (3)
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1/17/2011 4:52 PM	Rate (0)
Radarman Member Joined: 1/17/2011 Last visit: 3/3/2015 Posts: 1 Rating: (0)	LR460 is used for extreme temperatures. Simply elevate the transmitter flange to reduce the flange temperature to less than 200C. Or use air cooling to keep the flange cool as is done currently on blast furnace applications. See the attachment for some temperature measurements taken on a clinker cooler application (material temperature approx. 1800C is approx.). Attachment high_temp_radar_solids.jpg (269 Downloads)

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1/26/2011 4:32 PM	Rate (0)
Toppie Posts: 74 Rating: (3)	Hi Tomy Master From the info provided, I would suggest that you check the temperature at the proposed mounting point at the top of the silo. The LR460 can be ordered with a 4" flange so check the temp at the mating flange. If it is 200C or less, we can use the LR460. If not, we need to investigate the requirement for additional cooling. Look at the proposed mounting location and the location of the fill point. The LR460 is able to see through extremely heavy dust but it cannot see through a solid stream of material. If a solid stream blocks the beam path, we may get some errors, however since most silos fill relatively slowly, these can often be tolerated. Do you have some photos, drawings etc of this silo? I's also be interested in knowing the layout on top. We are asking so many questions because this is a tough application. Personally, I have never seen an 80m high brick silo and it's unusual to see material of 400C stored in a silo.I've been inthe instrumentation business for more than 35 years. Have you considered talking to the local Siemens Process Instrument salesman and ask him to have a look? Cheers [ \|:0
Toppie Posts: 74 Rating: (3)
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2/15/2011 5:02 PM	Rate (0)
DavieS Posts: 64 Rating: (2)	The new LR560 https://www.automation.siemens.com/w1/automation-technology-sitrans-lr560-19704.htm also has a 200 deg C rating and comes standard with an air purge connection. If an air supply is available at the top of the silo this would greatly assist in reducing the temperature as seen by the instrument. You can also use a "vortex cooler" to further reduce the temperature of the incoming air. This new LR560 also has some revolutionary features making it the best free air radar gauge available for this type of application.
DavieS Posts: 64 Rating: (2)
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